Introducing Mapgen Week on Ladder

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@chriskila000 said in Introducing Mapgen Week on Ladder:

i do wonder when/in what form we can give feedback ?
is this thread for that ? or is there going too be a poll/thread at the end of the week where we can do that ?

I have not discussed with the entire team yet, but I would like to do the following:

Once the map gen week concludes we ( ladder team ) shall construct a feedback thread with a set of

  1. Questions everyone should answer (TBD to be discussed)

  2. look at some example maps - with screenshots - and discuss reactions ( for example, 10x10 maps which have two lanes, one giant mound of terrain in center ) to get some reference points

  3. Take a look at some win / loss ratios of players during regular ladder verse mapgen week to see if there’s a correlation to skill where impromptu strategy is used verse “prebuilt.” This obviously should be taken too harshly as it’s only one week, but absolutely interesting nonetheless.

  4. Is the ratio of map sizes acceptable?

  5. Do specific map sizes have any specific trends that stick out more than others?

  6. Open comments/ suggestions

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@Swkoll
Here is the current distribution by style. Each number can be viewed as the percentage. Values from 0 to 1.

20km : BIG_ISLANDS: 0.25, CENTER_LAKE: 0.06, BASIC: 0.06, DROP_PLATEAU: 0.03, LAND_BRIDGE: 0.13, LITTLE_MOUNTAIN: 0.06, ONE_ISLAND: 0.06, SMALL_ISLANDS: 0.25, VALLEY: 0.06, HIGH_RECLAIM: 0.02, FLOODED: 0.00

10km: CENTER_LAKE: 0.13, BASIC: 0.13, DROP_PLATEAU: 0.06, LITTLE_MOUNTAIN: 0.13, MOUNTAIN_RANGE: 0.13, ONE_ISLAND: 0.13, VALLEY: 0.13, HIGH_RECLAIM: 0.03, LOW_MEX: 0.13, FLOODED: 0.00

5km: BASIC: 0.21, DROP_PLATEAU: 0.11, LITTLE_MOUNTAIN: 0.21, MOUNTAIN_RANGE: 0.21, HIGH_RECLAIM: 0.05, LOW_MEX: 0.21

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@askaholic I mean that forgedalliance.exe launches with splash screen but is stuck on waiting - before the map loads

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@Sheikah is it possible to make it so that everyone who starts a game in the same matchmaker queue, 09:57 for example, to have the same random map?

It could feed not only some positive discussion, it also allows you to compare yourself to other players playing the same map at the same time.

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That would require a server change and isn't exactly feasible because it would be entirely different than normal operation and would break across rating brackets and what not.

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@sheikah thanks, clear 😊

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It will also nearly never result in anybody getting the same map unless you made anyone get the same map if they started a game within the same 10 minute interval or so

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So far at my 750 rating right when im starting to get a feel for the maps and playstyles, this change is implemented. It totally upsets my gameplay and adds in another randomness aspect on top of a lot of mechanics that im already trying to learn as-is. Had this come later on in my SupCom experience then I might welcome it, however with some maps having 5 mex points at spawn and others having a total of 0, (leaving me with equally low knowledge of what the heck to do) I think the generator needs work and is ill suited for any sort of competitive field. Perhaps if it was only for people who are very familiar with the game, or an option that if both players have enabled will use the generator, but if one does not then a normal map will be played.

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damn, I haven't visit forum for a while I want more mapgen! Queuing up right now! This is so awesome, wanted something like this, and now it is here!

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I just want to say that i started playing 1v1 ladder for the first time since 2016 this week.

Not knowing the maps and the super specific build orders and metas on them is a major barrier to ranked 1v1 IMO.

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I've been able to get so many more ladder games than usual with this mapgen week, love it!

@JessieFeathers Honestly I think you have it kinda backwards. Mapgen levels the playing field for noobs, there is no way you can vs a random person your rating now that has a ton of games on specific maps giving them an advantage against newer players who are that rating because they're better generalist players. Memorize the basic starting BOs and you'll be fine, this is true regardless of mapgen maps or not. Many of the mapgen maps are better or more interesting than the human made ones imo

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Are 800s playing white fire by attack moving first engie and delaying initial mexes for pgen spam or are they doing generic bo and then using the reclaim to boost themselves? Really think people just psyche themselves out of playing by imagining anyone that touches ladder is some god that has refined and memorized every map and put it into a notepad doc they open on their second monitor. Barely any top players have map specific bos when they play ladder. Map gen hasn’t changed any of this.

If these low level players really had these brutal bos, they’s be climbing 400 rating by next month, but I bet that almost never happens. And if you think, for example, taking into account the white fire reclaim counts as “bo” or “map knowledge” then the same lack of map knowledge on your end will still lead to you losing map gen games; it’s just general game sense.

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@ftxcommando Not sure if directed at me but I do agree with this. What I meant in what I said is that there might be people who are 700 only because they know some tricks on the ladder map pool maps because they play them all the time kinda like the rating "gatekeepers" who have 1k ladder games at 800 or 1k or whatever amount of points. These tricks are far from optimal or whatever, but at this low level can beat a 700 who doesn't know the map at all. I feel that you can be 700 on some maps and clueless on other maps. Mapgen removes that advantage. They're far from brutal BOs, but they're better than whatever some 700 who has never seen the map might do. They'd still get rolled by a 1300 who has never seen the map.

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There are a handful of "generic BOs" that you can apply to mapgen maps. Sometimes you want a normal build, sometimes you want to spam pgens because there's lots of reclaim, sometimes you want to rush a transport. You can learn these builds by learning specific builds for ladder maps, e.g. a transport rush map will teach you the transport rush generic BO. Obviously a "refined" BO would be better than a generic one that you slap together. But there's got to be less than 10 total "generic" BOs that I would draw on:

  • Standard fac 2pgen 2mex
  • Hydro build fac 4 mex 1 hydro
  • near hydro build fac 1-2 pgens 4mex hydro + more mexes before hydro finishes
  • first bomber 1 pgen 1 air fac 1 pgen assist fac
  • second or third bomber (almost the same thing but make 1-2 engies first)
  • first jester 2 pgens air fac
  • spam power for transport rush (and/or make inties first to shoot down enemy trans)
  • spam power because there's lots of reclaim like on Daroza's
  • factory + 1-2 mex + walk ACU, let engies build the pgens, because you need ACU to hoof it, this can be good when there are very few mexes at home and you want to expand ASAP
  • spam factories for big tree reclaim early, so you build less power than normal, you'll build the pgens up later

A lot of these are so similar to each other maybe it's silly to count them as separate builds so maybe this is more like 5-6 builds than 10. If you know these 10 generic builds I think you can pick a decent build for 99% of the mapgen maps you might get. It's enough that you probably won't fall behind early against a player of similar skill.

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@exselsior

Nah not really directed at you but mostly just the general tone of “oh finally I can play ladder and not lose to dirty bo whores”

Frankly I can’t wait to go and look at some of the 10k game count lower rated players and see that their rating has literally not moved significantly at all due to map gen.

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@ftxcommando said in Introducing Mapgen Week on Ladder:

Frankly I can’t wait to go and look at some of the 10k game count lower rated players and see that their rating has literally not moved significantly at all due to map gen.

I'm guessing these 10k game players don't play for rating but entertainment, asking them if they liked it is probably more relevant.

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If the 10k game dude at 800 rating doesn’t have a bo and isn’t the one keeping you down as the theoretical 800 with no map experience playing 1 game a day, then who exactly is the phantom bo whore that map gen has slayed here?

Arma has basically said what I feel. There are generic builds that you need to know to get to the game stage where decisionmaking matters. When I read sub 1200 players explain how map gen will finally allow them to blossom like a beautiful butterfly and allow their 1800-tier decisionmaking to get them the rating they truly deserve, it just looks like they are unaware that the exact same generic bos will be getting applied on map gen and they will still lose before min 8 if they don’t know them.

Know generic 3rd air bo with and without hydro and you are fine on 85% of ladder maps, same will hold true on map gen. Beyond that, ctrl+shift and zoom out to see critical map points to fight for. Or just divide the map in half.

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@ftxcommando said in Introducing Mapgen Week on Ladder:

Are 800s playing white fire by attack moving first engie and delaying initial mexes for pgen spam or are they doing generic bo and then using the reclaim to boost themselves? Really think people just psyche themselves out of playing by imagining anyone that touches ladder is some god that has refined and memorized every map and put it into a notepad doc they open on their second monitor. Barely any top players have map specific bos when they play ladder. Map gen hasn’t changed any of this.

If these low level players really had these brutal bos, they’s be climbing 400 rating by next month, but I bet that almost never happens. And if you think, for example, taking into account the white fire reclaim counts as “bo” or “map knowledge” then the same lack of map knowledge on your end will still lead to you losing map gen games; it’s just general game sense.

Maybe its true maybe its not, but I WANT TO SEE THAT THE MATCHMAKING IS FAIR and nobody can have even a tiny advantage before game starts

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i agree, that’s why i am making a motion to ban anyone that has a tummy ache from playing ladder

also no sleep deprivation

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@karlhoffman said in Introducing Mapgen Week on Ladder:

Maybe its true maybe its not, but I WANT TO SEE THAT THE MATCHMAKING IS FAIR and nobody can have even a tiny advantage before game starts

Yes the true measure of who is the better player, keep everything even with no advantage whatsoever. I'll be sure to challenge Tagada to a 1v1 now and tell him that he has to magically play at my 1400 ladder level so we can be even with no advantages. Same factions too, after a good nights rest and some food and coffee.