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    The current pre-release of the client ("pioneer" in the version) is only compatible to itself. So you can only play with other testers. Please be aware!

    Frigate spam beats any comp

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Balance Discussion
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    • CascadeC Offline
      Cascade
      last edited by Cascade

      I decided to dig into some navy stat lines because I felt that frigates were quite strong and I was blown away.
      The Problem
      In both DPS/mass and HP/mass, frigates are extremely strong. So strong that any composition that replaces frigates for another unit will almost always lose. (granted that each navy is equal in mass totals) I have left out the battlecruiser because in my sandbox testing it is the only unit that dishes out enough dps with direct fire, combined with kiting ability that it reliably wins over frigates even with bad micro

      THE DATA
      Note: All data was pulled from the unit database which I assume is up to date

      DPS/MASS

      Frigate dps/mass
      UEF.......................0.178 dps/mass
      CYBRAN ...........0.257 dps/mass
      AEON..................0.202 dps/mass
      SERA....................0.202 dps/mass
      AVERAGE...........0.209 dps/mass

      Destroyer dps/mass
      UEF.....................0.122 dps/mass
      CYBRAN..........0.102 dps/mass
      AEON................0.094 dps/mass
      SERA..................0.093 dps/mass
      AVERAGE........0.102 dps/mass

      Battleship dps/mass
      UEF.....................0.056 dps/mass
      CYBRAN..........0.056 dps/mass
      AEON................0.045 dps/mass
      SERA..................0.050 dps/mass
      AVERAGE........0.051 dps/mass

      HEALTH/MASS

      Frigate hp/mass
      UEF.......................7.7 hp/mass
      CYBRAN............7.6 hp/mass
      AEON..................6.4 hp/mass
      SERA....................7.4 hp/mass
      AVERAGE..........7.3 hp/mass

      Destroyer hp/mass
      UEF.......................3.3 hp/mass
      CYBRAN............2.7 hp/mass
      AEON..................3.3 hp/mass
      SERA....................3.1 hp/mass
      AVERAGE...........3.1 hp/mass

      Battleship hp/mass
      UEF......................5.1 hp/mass
      CYBRAN...........5.6 hp/mass
      AEON.................5.3 hp/mass
      SERA...................5.4 hp/mass
      AVERAGE.........5.35 hp/mass

      CONCLUSION:

      Frigates have ...........2x the dps/mass of destroyers
      Destroyers have..... 2x the dps/mass of battleships
      Frigates have ...........4x the dps/mass of battleships

      Frigates have ..........~2x the hp/mass of destroyers
      Destroyers have ....~0.7x the hp/mass of battleships
      Frigates have ..........~1.4x the hp/mass of battleships

      A Few Scenarios
      10k mass
      40 frigates (2571.6 DPS) vs 2 destroyers, 22 frigates.......(1874.38 DPS)
      40 frigates (2571.6 DPS) vs 4.4 destroyers (10k mass)...(1012 DPS)
      40 frigates (2571.6 DPS) vs 1 battleship, 8 frigates............(1064 DPS) (lol)

      I don't really know how to measure range with these values but in my sandbox testing I found that the kiting ability of destroyers isn't enough to stop the mass equivalent in frigates, which in my opinion is a good thing. Pure destroyer spam should lose to frigates. The problem is that destroyers + frigates will lose to pure frigates

      My Proposal: Battleships and Destroyers should be more specialized to incentivize a 3 tech navy composition. Destroyers should become more glass cannon like with = or slightly worse dps/mass of the frigate but also have it's health dropped substantially. That way destroyers MUST be shielded with frigates but also good enough that a destroyer+frigate composition wins over pure frigates. Battleships should become far tankier, with their hp/mass = or slightly worse to the Frigate, but their dps should be dropped substantially. Also some range buff would be good. This means that battleships can act as a back row artillery section but they could also be cycled up front and act as sponges and the destroyers can fall behind them. This should make navy gameplay more engaging and make the current stalemate meta of lobbing battleship shells at each other while the frigates afk waiting for a full commit from the opponent less viable.

      Some common arguments against pure frigate spam being OP

      Just make torpedo bombers bro!

      frigate aa is good enough that a lot of them will stop torpedo bombers. Also this creates a weird dynamic that you/your team must be winning air in order to not lose to frigate spam

      Just kite them bro!

      Not all destroyers can shoot while kiting, and half of them that can kite don't have all guns available while doing so, which just makes frigates even better

      being frigate locked is okay, I won't be punished until they send t2, bro!

      while true on some maps, 3/4 factions have good enough aa to stop torps, seraphim being the weakest and cybran being the strongest. Shards are great btw

      Frigates being OP is okay and I like it that way, anything above t1 should be used for punishing an already won navy position, bro!

      I understand that in a ladder game there is usually a lot on your plate and navy comp is just another addition to the long list of things to pay attention to, but it makes navy gameplay in team games so boring

      I'd like to hear what you guys think

      Edit: I mostly play Setons and large team games so my experience might be different than yours. Feel free to tell me why!

      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 4
      • T Offline
        Tagada Balance Team
        last edited by Tagada

        Yes, frigates are more efficient hp/mass and dps/mass wise, otherwise you wouldn't build them once you get to t2 navy. Frigates are supposed to be the backbone of your navy, the dmg sink and also dmg dealer once you get into range, they support larger ships like destros, cruisers, battleships and protect them from getting overrun by frigates, hover. Pure frigate spam doesn't win vs few destros + frigates supporting them given that the ratio is correct eg. vs 40 frigates you would have 1 or 2 destros and the rest frigs. Yes in an all out battle without kiting you won't win the fight but if you try to harass the enemy with your destros and kite when he tries to engage you will win. He can either chase you while taking free dmg from destros, running further away from his reinforcement point and closer to yours. He is also chasing you in a horrible formation where if you attack move after some kiting you can easily kill the front runners basically for free and then continue kiting. Another thing is that Frigates can't deal significant dmg to bases, they kill few beach mexes, provide intel and that's it while destroyers can kill whole expansions once you force enemy to yield some territory. In a balanced game you can't achieve anything with pure frigate spam past some point in the game since you can't hope to just push out enemy completely (defenders advantage, leaving reclaim in unfavourable spots and also your enemy invests just as much into navy but he makes 1 or 2 destros instead of pure frigates), you can force him to yield some ground but unless you have missile cruisers/destros yourself you won't be able to capitalize on it.
        Another thing is that when there is a face off and you have pure frig vs destros/ missile cruisers you will take some free dmg, depending on the map and how APM taxing it is it might be quite a lot.
        Different factions want different ratios of destroyers to frigates eg. Cybran destroyer can't really kite well and cybran frigate is the strongest and that's why cybran should make more frigates compared to other fations. On the other hand Aeon has the best destroyer and the worst frigate so it's the opposite for them. Seraphim destroyers are very good vs frigate/hover and they can kite insanely well so vs frig/hover spam you can make more of them and less frigs. UEF is kind of in the middle, they would rather wait for their destro + shieldboad + missile cruisers mix and keep it safe with enough frigates, then secure some contested territory and destroy expansions with their cruisers.

        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 4
        • ResistanceR Offline
          Resistance
          last edited by

          Just in addition to what has been said,any units mass wise will beat the same ammount of mass concentrated in a higher tech unit,tech is usually a concentration of mass per unit so you get the full dps while getting in range,as you have probably already seen,most units stay behind in a real battle and quite some dps gets lost due to that

          queuing with a newbie to show him the beauty of tmm and meeting tagada be like:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLcRpdZ0Xb0&ab_channel=Tomoko

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • epic-bennisE Offline
            epic-bennis Banned
            last edited by

            I still think that frigate spam, especially cybran frigate spam is overpowered and that not even seraphim destroyers stand the slightest chance to protect their build power against mass equal frigate spam. I would even go as far as saying that half the mass spent in cybran frigates beat sera destroyers, and therefore any other kind of destroyer mix on relatively open waters. On chokes of course destroyers become pretty good.

            A T 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 2
            • A Offline
              Aulex @epic-bennis
              last edited by

              @big-bennis-magic You should sandbox it and post the replay to prove your point

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • T Offline
                Tagada Balance Team @epic-bennis
                last edited by

                @big-bennis-magic If you include reinforcement time then ofc you can, with equal mass investment enemy can't push all the way in because even if your army is 5% less efficient then you have all of your mass in units on front lines compared to enemy's 80-90%. And if enemy has pure frig spam he can't do anything unless he pushes all the way in which means that he can only push you back towards your production and not any further and all this time as your armies build up destroyers get stronger and stronger compared to frigates and eventually (I would guess around 20-30 frigate armies) they get equally as strong with micro or even more efficient then frigs.

                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • I Offline
                  IceDreamer Banned
                  last edited by

                  Frigates are bullshit and always have been. I left this community in large part because people are stubborn morons and nobody wants to change the status quo to make the game better. Everyone's so afraid of their own goddamned snot when it comes to changing the balance of the game to something fundamentally new and injecting new life and intrigue into the game. It's pathetic.

                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                  • TheWeakieT Offline
                    TheWeakie
                    last edited by

                    See you again next month when u find the forums again

                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                    • biassB Offline
                      biass
                      last edited by

                      don't tell him about t1 tanks

                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
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