Frigate spam beats any comp
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I decided to dig into some navy stat lines because I felt that frigates were quite strong and I was blown away.
The Problem
In both DPS/mass and HP/mass, frigates are extremely strong. So strong that any composition that replaces frigates for another unit will almost always lose. (granted that each navy is equal in mass totals) I have left out the battlecruiser because in my sandbox testing it is the only unit that dishes out enough dps with direct fire, combined with kiting ability that it reliably wins over frigates even with bad microTHE DATA
Note: All data was pulled from the unit database which I assume is up to dateDPS/MASS
Frigate dps/mass
UEF.......................0.178 dps/mass
CYBRAN ...........0.257 dps/mass
AEON..................0.202 dps/mass
SERA....................0.202 dps/mass
AVERAGE...........0.209 dps/massDestroyer dps/mass
UEF.....................0.122 dps/mass
CYBRAN..........0.102 dps/mass
AEON................0.094 dps/mass
SERA..................0.093 dps/mass
AVERAGE........0.102 dps/massBattleship dps/mass
UEF.....................0.056 dps/mass
CYBRAN..........0.056 dps/mass
AEON................0.045 dps/mass
SERA..................0.050 dps/mass
AVERAGE........0.051 dps/massHEALTH/MASS
Frigate hp/mass
UEF.......................7.7 hp/mass
CYBRAN............7.6 hp/mass
AEON..................6.4 hp/mass
SERA....................7.4 hp/mass
AVERAGE..........7.3 hp/massDestroyer hp/mass
UEF.......................3.3 hp/mass
CYBRAN............2.7 hp/mass
AEON..................3.3 hp/mass
SERA....................3.1 hp/mass
AVERAGE...........3.1 hp/massBattleship hp/mass
UEF......................5.1 hp/mass
CYBRAN...........5.6 hp/mass
AEON.................5.3 hp/mass
SERA...................5.4 hp/mass
AVERAGE.........5.35 hp/massCONCLUSION:
Frigates have ...........2x the dps/mass of destroyers
Destroyers have..... 2x the dps/mass of battleships
Frigates have ...........4x the dps/mass of battleshipsFrigates have ..........~2x the hp/mass of destroyers
Destroyers have ....~0.7x the hp/mass of battleships
Frigates have ..........~1.4x the hp/mass of battleshipsA Few Scenarios
10k mass
40 frigates (2571.6 DPS) vs 2 destroyers, 22 frigates.......(1874.38 DPS)
40 frigates (2571.6 DPS) vs 4.4 destroyers (10k mass)...(1012 DPS)
40 frigates (2571.6 DPS) vs 1 battleship, 8 frigates............(1064 DPS) (lol)I don't really know how to measure range with these values but in my sandbox testing I found that the kiting ability of destroyers isn't enough to stop the mass equivalent in frigates, which in my opinion is a good thing. Pure destroyer spam should lose to frigates. The problem is that destroyers + frigates will lose to pure frigates
My Proposal: Battleships and Destroyers should be more specialized to incentivize a 3 tech navy composition. Destroyers should become more glass cannon like with = or slightly worse dps/mass of the frigate but also have it's health dropped substantially. That way destroyers MUST be shielded with frigates but also good enough that a destroyer+frigate composition wins over pure frigates. Battleships should become far tankier, with their hp/mass = or slightly worse to the Frigate, but their dps should be dropped substantially. Also some range buff would be good. This means that battleships can act as a back row artillery section but they could also be cycled up front and act as sponges and the destroyers can fall behind them. This should make navy gameplay more engaging and make the current stalemate meta of lobbing battleship shells at each other while the frigates afk waiting for a full commit from the opponent less viable.
Some common arguments against pure frigate spam being OP
Just make torpedo bombers bro!
frigate aa is good enough that a lot of them will stop torpedo bombers. Also this creates a weird dynamic that you/your team must be winning air in order to not lose to frigate spam
Just kite them bro!
Not all destroyers can shoot while kiting, and half of them that can kite don't have all guns available while doing so, which just makes frigates even better
being frigate locked is okay, I won't be punished until they send t2, bro!
while true on some maps, 3/4 factions have good enough aa to stop torps, seraphim being the weakest and cybran being the strongest. Shards are great btw
Frigates being OP is okay and I like it that way, anything above t1 should be used for punishing an already won navy position, bro!
I understand that in a ladder game there is usually a lot on your plate and navy comp is just another addition to the long list of things to pay attention to, but it makes navy gameplay in team games so boring
I'd like to hear what you guys think
Edit: I mostly play Setons and large team games so my experience might be different than yours. Feel free to tell me why!
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Yes, frigates are more efficient hp/mass and dps/mass wise, otherwise you wouldn't build them once you get to t2 navy. Frigates are supposed to be the backbone of your navy, the dmg sink and also dmg dealer once you get into range, they support larger ships like destros, cruisers, battleships and protect them from getting overrun by frigates, hover. Pure frigate spam doesn't win vs few destros + frigates supporting them given that the ratio is correct eg. vs 40 frigates you would have 1 or 2 destros and the rest frigs. Yes in an all out battle without kiting you won't win the fight but if you try to harass the enemy with your destros and kite when he tries to engage you will win. He can either chase you while taking free dmg from destros, running further away from his reinforcement point and closer to yours. He is also chasing you in a horrible formation where if you attack move after some kiting you can easily kill the front runners basically for free and then continue kiting. Another thing is that Frigates can't deal significant dmg to bases, they kill few beach mexes, provide intel and that's it while destroyers can kill whole expansions once you force enemy to yield some territory. In a balanced game you can't achieve anything with pure frigate spam past some point in the game since you can't hope to just push out enemy completely (defenders advantage, leaving reclaim in unfavourable spots and also your enemy invests just as much into navy but he makes 1 or 2 destros instead of pure frigates), you can force him to yield some ground but unless you have missile cruisers/destros yourself you won't be able to capitalize on it.
Another thing is that when there is a face off and you have pure frig vs destros/ missile cruisers you will take some free dmg, depending on the map and how APM taxing it is it might be quite a lot.
Different factions want different ratios of destroyers to frigates eg. Cybran destroyer can't really kite well and cybran frigate is the strongest and that's why cybran should make more frigates compared to other fations. On the other hand Aeon has the best destroyer and the worst frigate so it's the opposite for them. Seraphim destroyers are very good vs frigate/hover and they can kite insanely well so vs frig/hover spam you can make more of them and less frigs. UEF is kind of in the middle, they would rather wait for their destro + shieldboad + missile cruisers mix and keep it safe with enough frigates, then secure some contested territory and destroy expansions with their cruisers. -
Just in addition to what has been said,any units mass wise will beat the same ammount of mass concentrated in a higher tech unit,tech is usually a concentration of mass per unit so you get the full dps while getting in range,as you have probably already seen,most units stay behind in a real battle and quite some dps gets lost due to that
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I still think that frigate spam, especially cybran frigate spam is overpowered and that not even seraphim destroyers stand the slightest chance to protect their build power against mass equal frigate spam. I would even go as far as saying that half the mass spent in cybran frigates beat sera destroyers, and therefore any other kind of destroyer mix on relatively open waters. On chokes of course destroyers become pretty good.
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@big-bennis-magic You should sandbox it and post the replay to prove your point
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@big-bennis-magic If you include reinforcement time then ofc you can, with equal mass investment enemy can't push all the way in because even if your army is 5% less efficient then you have all of your mass in units on front lines compared to enemy's 80-90%. And if enemy has pure frig spam he can't do anything unless he pushes all the way in which means that he can only push you back towards your production and not any further and all this time as your armies build up destroyers get stronger and stronger compared to frigates and eventually (I would guess around 20-30 frigate armies) they get equally as strong with micro or even more efficient then frigs.
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Frigates are bullshit and always have been. I left this community in large part because people are stubborn morons and nobody wants to change the status quo to make the game better. Everyone's so afraid of their own goddamned snot when it comes to changing the balance of the game to something fundamentally new and injecting new life and intrigue into the game. It's pathetic.
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See you again next month when u find the forums again
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don't tell him about t1 tanks
