Very long post about spread attack, UI mods and why improving player's controls and UI is apparently and wrongly considered a bad thing in FAF, also balance

TheWeakie

If the game was ended by a shift-g then did it really have the potential to be interesting?

Clearly no games have ever be ruined by shift g

Evan_

Were they ruined by JUST a shift-g? Or were there other factors at play like a bad OC, overextension, lack of scouting, pushing with fewer units, low health, ect?

Ithilis

Exotic_Retard is that you ?

I agree with literally everything that read in the first post. And way where FAF development goes it literally backwards. The problem is that player who made balance, actually don't know how to do it. They are good players or good coders, but only very few of them have mind to do balance and think in big view. Then they feer and are lazy to do think in proper way.

"And I think that its objectively correct that players should be able to tell their units what to do as effortlessly as possible, because the point of this game isnt to fight the controls, but to fight other players."
I remember as yesterday when target priority was removed, and bannable because it was considered as OP - to tell units what I want from them to do.

It's very sad where this game go... And the reason why basically it stops be interesting to play, even when there is nothing better in the strategic field, this game is worse as was in past. And that's very sad.

FtXCommando

There was literally never a period in time where you had more viable strategic options in this game, stop the nostalgia shitposting or you’ll turn into dstjokov 2.0.

The Yudi Turbo game last LotS qualifier is an example of a game entirely ended because of a lack of attention on ACU for 3 seconds which shift+g promptly punishes. Could have been a decent game otherwise. Frankly you could argue that the entire game was Yudi outplaying Turbo but he lost because he was managing macro in his expansions rather than perpetually focused on ACU in mid.

"WELL THAT'S THE COMEBACK MECHANIC" yeah well I disagree on it being fun in game both as a player and as a viewer. There is no real decision-making, just "well I'm sorta fucked, might as well as shift+g on his ACU and hope he isn't paying attention"

speed2

So why wont you play Supremacy, if losing ACU cuz of 3 seconds is too punishing? No need to argue about stupid snipe mechanics anymore

FtXCommando

Because that's an incredibly low effort strawman and you know it.

speed2

Im serious, but kinda offtopic to this discussion. And it would eliminate all the "cheap" snipe options.

Ithilis

@speed2 said in Very long post about spread attack, UI mods and why improving player's controls and UI is apparently and wrongly considered a bad thing in FAF, also balance:

Btw. this is one example of what it can do https://www.loom.com/share/3beeefd58b1b4a378b3d6e7cfdc1d1cc

And where is the problem with that? There are units good against fast units, and units that are bad against them.

This all add more deep in game, and of course need some consideration in balance, while now none care while its so niche.

But I not see any problem in automatic move order as this.

FtXCommando

Because snipes themselves are still essential to the game. I have a problem with instantly losing the game because you sneeze, if I wanted that element in my games I'd go to starcraft instead. It's the same logic as why snipe mode had to be removed for ACUs, you just make the margin for error so extremely small for ACU aggression but you still make ACU aggression essential on many of the maps on FAF. These things are at a tension with one another.

I do not have an issue with people doing all ins with jesters or corsairs and giving up map control by making less land units to put more eco into such a tactic. The margin for error from the player getting sniped is larger here and IMO you need a large self-inflicted margin of error to justify tactics that just automatically lose the game being part of the game. It's the central way to make those mechanics not feel like bullshit.

speed2

Fair enough

Mach

these dont seem like spread move issues, more like spread move showing you the real issues (ACU getting pathfinding blocked by landspam and being weak against sufficient number of it)

TheWeakie

@Evan_ said

Were they ruined by JUST a shift-g?

yes

Evan_

@FtXCommando said in Very long post about spread attack, UI mods and why improving player's controls and UI is apparently and wrongly considered a bad thing in FAF, also balance:

There was literally never a period in time where you had more viable strategic options in this game, stop the nostalgia shitposting or you’ll turn into dstjokov 2.0.

The Yudi Turbo game last LotS qualifier is an example of a game entirely ended because of a lack of attention on ACU for 3 seconds which shift+g promptly punishes. Could have been a decent game otherwise. Frankly you could argue that the entire game was Yudi outplaying Turbo but he lost because he was managing macro in his expansions rather than perpetually focused on ACU in mid.

"WELL THAT'S THE COMEBACK MECHANIC" yeah well I disagree on it being fun in game both as a player and as a viewer. There is no real decision-making, just "well I'm sorta fucked, might as well as shift+g on his ACU and hope he isn't paying attention"

I agree that arguing something is a comeback mechanic is bad, no one (I hope) is arguing that.

I watched the game (I assume it was #13179901, Yudi vs Turbo2 on setons). Yudi was ahead and died to a shift g. But Yudi was way over-extended, had his units miles behind, had no e storage for overcharge, and had taken chip damage and lost his pd to t1 arty. Even with that it was still close to a draw, although granted that was mostly because Turbo lost a lot of hp earlier. There was no reason why he couldn't just walk his acu back and then go back to clicking mexes and trees, instead of forward. Or at least wait until he wasn't completely alone to rmb into 20 tanks.

You don't need to perpetually stare at an ACU to keep it alive from shift-g + ATP. If you get overcharge, keep units nearby, don't push when you have low health ect then shift-g snipe will fail unless they have way more tanks.

What I would argue is that having more control actually makes things SAFER for a com. You can quickly switch priority to the tanks or t1 arty that is killing your com. You can shift g your own units in to block enemy acu while you retreat. You can turn on auto-oc and hope for good targeting while moving com and microing units or do manual OC and focus on shooting the biggest clumps of units. Not to mention having better control over units makes it a lot easier to push into an opponent, which means your ACU doesn't need to as much the heavy lifting while units trickle in, and takes less damage.

FtXCommando

Yes, TURBO's acu was extremely damaged and there was safe terrain to retreat ACU into within a few seconds. Personally I don't think it was such a misplay that a game loss is deserved, Yudi did a ton of work to ensure a reasonable level of safety in mid beforehand. There was also land units within 30 seconds of the ACU. Unfortunately none of that matters because of shift+g. You can argue there are ways to prevent it and accounting for those ways are simply part of the game. I do not disagree with it. In fact I don't even really have a problem with shift+g, but I also don't like it either. But should shift+g have such an absurd amount of focus and priority in your mind because it can cause you to get brutal crushed by 30 tanks within 10 seconds? I don't really like that it does.

And with shift+g AND ATP? Yeah you do lol. Did you see any of the 5x5 games when shift+g and ATP were both around? Your acu just instantly loses 4k hp because you didnt keep your mantis kissing the heels of him.

Edit: I assumed you were talking about old ATP where you could target ACUs with units.

Evan_

I'm not disagreeing that shift-g + atp isn't strong. I'd even go so far as to say Yudi would probably have survived if shift-g or ATP wasn't in the game. But again, he would have survived if he just moved his units forward, or had OC, or kept his Acu back. I don't think it is too much to ask for a 2200 ladder player to do one of those. I'm trying to present arguments for keeping shift-g because others and I actually do think it adds value to the game.

And yeah, the first times I played vs ATP I died to it. A lot of people did since they were being punished for things that were easier to do before. But I really don't think it is that strong that it auto-wins against a competent opponent. To drop 4k hp (just as an example) in a couple seconds takes like 20 tanks and an acu all shooting at the Com, even if all are in range. That is more than enough time to wipe all of their tanks and retreat with the Acu. The very same ATP can focus the other guy's tanks instead of shooting at his ACU, and reduce their damage, and you can OC the large clump of units that try to move in and focus fire the com. And being able to move and target units easier means you have more time to micro your acu to keep it safe.

edit* not wipe all of their tanks but enough to drop the incomming damage drastically and stay alive.

Psions

@Mach said in Very long post about spread attack, UI mods and why improving player's controls and UI is apparently and wrongly considered a bad thing in FAF, also balance:

you see, like I said in my post, UI mods that dont do decisions for you should be allowed, not those that do, in your aimbot example, aimbot constantly makes decisions about where to move cursor based on where enemy is, this would be in FAF something that microes units for you by giving them orders by itself, not something that allows you to better and easier give those units specific orders

idk if you even read the post considering

Aimbots don't make decisions they just track the closest unit to you. Equally, recoil mods just automate certain inputs to remove recoil on guns. Recoil mods are technically a "QoL" change.

techmind_

Flanking can be done in Ui as well. It is possible to point the camera to an area where to move the bots and auto-select them and point camera in exactly the correct spot, you will just need to click a hotkey(which will produce "manual" mouse click)). No logic in unit code 100% ui, just mash 'flank' hotkey instead)

TheWeakie

@Evan_ said
...

you're missing the main issue, which is that a single misclick will instantly decide the game. This is also why the whole target priority discussion happened since it amplified this problem.

Evan_

I'm actually in agreement that a misclick can or will instantly decide the game. I just don't think it warrants removing shift-g all by itself because it is relatively easy to prevent unless you aren't paying attention or don't make some egregious mistake.

edit: And I don't want to sound elitist by this post. I'm not trying to say "Oh everyone's just bad it's easy to counter just git gud". I just think that there are decent ways to counter it that means most people shouldn't die to all in shift-g's much after playing against it once or twice.