UEF sucks - Beefy structures don't offset severe weaknesses
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What universe are you living in that you think rhino's are not only better than uef t2, but hardcounter them?
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@FunkOff said in UEF sucks - Beefy structures don't offset severe weaknesses:
4- T2 land is not very good. Pillars and mongeese are spanked so hard by Rhinos it's ridiculous. UEF T2 land isnt as bad as Aeon's, but it's no advantage.
Almost baited a response before reading that
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UEF T2 PD is not the most expensive, Aeon is. It also has a decent rate of fire, 3 AOE and 40% more DPS compared to e.g. Cybran PD while being just 10% more expensive.
(Actually nevermind, things changed trom the last time I checked. Still 25% more DPS + AOE for 15% more mass.)
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I think UEF is strong actually
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@FtXCommando I had a recent game in which I lost 10 pillars to 5 rhinos and 4 of the Rhinos survived. Mongeese fair even worse due to the extremely low health. I will say, I think Mongoose is better than Hopilite, but Rhino beats both Mongoose and Pillar easily.
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Pillar and rhino are basically equivalent in mass for mass engagement. Point is that pillar loses less utility due to OC killing less mass each shot and it can also do more damage for the same mass cost due to being able to attack more locations at once.
Mongoose I'd say is worse than hoplite but UEF have mobile shields which immediately make mongoose absolutely destroy like any other T2 force given good micro.
There is no planet in this universe or the FA universe where UEF isn't the best T2.
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Some of these are epic meme tier, like saying Mongoose and Pillars are bad and lose vs Rhinos or saying that tanky buildings are offset by expensive PD and artillery somehow
. The PD difference is only 2% more than Aeon/Sera, so after 5 T2 PDs it's about 1 T1 tank difference, and the T2 artillery is actually the 2nd cheapest, so not expensive at all??
Also, in 1vs1 Striker wins vs Thaam, while Thaam draws with Mantis (unmicroed). -
@FtXCommando What would be a good sandbox test of Rhino vs Pillar/Mongoose? I on paper, Rhino's stats are nothing exceptional, but I think the recent range buff over the pillar makes a big difference, as does the fact that Rhinos have lasers and so the hits are instant and rarely miss. They are the Seraphim destroyer of T2 land combat, they can dodge all day whilst never missing themselves.
It is true that bumps in terrain can reduce Rhino effectiveness, but most modern maps are designed to be very flat to eliminate this effect., particularly ladder maps. (I'm in favor of this, by the way, Rhino behavior should be predictable.)
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@FtXCommando I consider T2 in basically 3 ways. First is small numbers of T2 against T1 spam. Rhinos and Ilshovahs are easily the best T2 units against mass T1 armies. Second is mass T2 vs T2, "mass" being 10+ units. Here, the Rhino advantage over the Pillar is reduced, but not eliminated. I don't actually think 5 pillars + 1 shield can beat 3 Rhinos (microed). The final is many T2 against a few T3. UEF probably has the best ability to fight T3 with T2. Tanky pillars + shields + mongoose can beat small numbers of Loyalists or Harbingers.
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@MazorNoob Yes, UEF T2 PD is most expensive and has like 30% less DPS than Seraphim PD. UEF T2 PD isnt the worst, generally, but it's the most expensive and that is a disadvantage.
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Sandboxing this stuff is kinda pointless. Yeah ok I can sandbox a pillar kiting an obsidian and killing it. Does that make obsidian garbage? No.
Pillar has far more in game utility than Rhino, I explained above why. You get it out quicker, you get it out in more areas, and you are not punished by OC anywhere near as hard. Mongoose + Shields are just the absolutely dominant unit mix against anything before T3 assuming proper apm and kite space.
If rhinos are kiting your pillars, then why didn't you make mongoose. Obviously the map has room for kiting, so abuse the range bot for free kills against the faction with no shields.
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In ranked games, I usually prefer Mongoose over Pillars as UEF, this is who I can safely say that Rhinos > UEF, because the small range advantage is totally eclipsed by the Rhino's speed, HP, and damage advantages.
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@FunkOff said in UEF sucks - Beefy structures don't offset severe weaknesses:
2- T1 bomber is good against structures but not against units. Easily worst bomber against Auroras or other mobile units.
The UEF t1 bomber is incredibly strong due to its high damage. The multiple bombs means that it performs better against dodging engineers/units compared to other factions.
4- T2 land is not very good. Pillars and mongeese are spanked so hard by Rhinos it's ridiculous. UEF T2 land isnt as bad as Aeon's, but it's no advantage.
Is this satire? UEF has the strongest early T2 stage...
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@FunkOff I systematically disagree with almost every single point you made in your original post.
- T1 UEF tank. Highest HP, lowest DPS, slightly below average speed, highest cost, 1 rank vet adds extra acu shot to kill, etc... Lots of differences between the T1 tanks. However when used the sum total of their differences balance out resulting in no faction having a distinct advantage. E.g. yes the striker may be very very very slightly inferior to other t1 tanks, but UEF T1 factory has 500+ more hp for no additional cost making t1 arty take longer to kill it. Little things like this make the T1 phase balanced.
- T1 UEF bomber has a different play style to a basic bomber (like the Sinnve). Just use it in a way that capitalises on it's AOE plus high damage. If units dodge it reliably, rejoice because you know the enemy is burning APM which you aren't.
- T2 UEF static arty is the second cheapest, not most expensive. T2 UEF PD is most expensive but the best all rounder, with highest HP, second lowest DPS, tied best AOE, good high fire arc and quick fire cycle. This makes it the best all rounder T2 PD in the game. If you desire a more specialised PD, play another faction. Aeon for alpha damage + slow fire cycle, cybran for cheap fast lazers and seraphim for... honestly not sure.
- Rhino never kill mongoose if mongoose are microed. They have too much range and speed. Pillars cost 68% of the mass of a Rhino so they obviously lose 1v1. FtXCommando also illustrated what advantages Pillars have over Rhino.
- Janus may not be fantastic at sniping eco structures like other factions fighter/bombers but that doesn't mean they suck. Like the UEF T1 bomber it is about using them for the right job. E.g. Abuse their AOE and high DPS to swathe large chunks out of your opponents land army for instance.
- T3 UEF land is almost a timebomb and possibly the strongest lategame. Percival is borderline OP and a fantastic unit! Titans are shielded raid lords of destruction. T3 UEF air is the same as all the others. T3 air (excluding Shocker) is about as perfectly balanced as possible.
- Sure the T1 UEF frigate might not be the best (like cybran) but it has jamming. T2 UEF destroyer might not be the best (like aeon) but you have the shield boat. T3 UEF navy more than makes up for any inefficiency in the earlier stages and is very powerful.
At the end of the day, it really comes down to how you use the pieces of the UEF army. Each unit can be viewed as a tool designed for a specific job. Use it for the wrong job and it's effectiveness drops.
