Why don't we have t3 sera gunships, but we have this?
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t2 land t3 land t2 navy t3 navy t2 air t1 air (bad bomber) t4 air
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Outclassed by who? I thought Cybran T3 land > Seraphim T3 land (at least 1v1). Bricks murder Othuums. And monkey lord can be built very quickly.
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Cybran t3 land will just always lose due to the incapability of providing hp via mobile shields, likewise the same for their t4s lacking the support of mobile shields.
It's simply too important to stack hp on both utility units and keeping your priority units alive. That hole in their roster that cannot be filled is the whole reason why they got an antishield unit.
A similar thing exists on navy btw, hence why the unit is amphibious. Every faction has a floating shield aside from Cybran.
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@ftxcommando said in Why don't we have t3 sera gunships, but we have this?:
t2 land t3 land t2 navy t3 navy t2 air t1 air (bad bomber) t4 air
Wait get out, cybran weak at t2 navy? Their t2 navy is opressive as fuuuck. Long range destroyers plus stealth boats? Sure shields might be nice for the other navies, but not beeing able to hit the enemy navy is 10 times more valuable then a shield.
Their t2 air is arguable the strongest for snipes, esp now mercies get hella nerfed lol.
T3 land is easily second place maybe shared first with UEF coz of percies/bricks. Aeon has nothing on t3 land and sera's oothums are meh.
So if Cybran gets anti shield shit, can other factions get some long range anti stealth stuff? That would be nice. Something that doesnt die the moment an anti air looks at it that is.
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They have either the weakest or 2nd weakest destro depending on circumstance because it has zero offensive player agency for micro while the defensive player can regularly dodge two thirds the dps. Only reason valiant is potentially worse is because it can’t cross utility to deal with subs. Salem actively gets worse when you try to micro it because the guns do not shoot backwards.
Corsairs are really not great at dealing with anything that isn’t acus and even then it can be dodged. They’re not bad, no t2 air option is, but it’s probably the worst overall at least at high level games where options matter for causing defenses to spread. Also aeon gunship is still better for snipes tbh.
Your take on t3 land makes me question everything. You don’t understand the value of harbs, sera mobile shields, or snipers. Cybran was basically just a worse UEF who still has a tough time at t3 stage. The slowness of siege bots + the infrastructure to setup the production + no shields to keep them safe from aoe makes t3 constantly problematic for cybran.
“easily 2nd place” it’s kinda agreed by everybody to be the worst, that’s why last patch it got more buffs.
Cyb also has no ravager to stop snipers like UEF, they strictly need to go for 15k mass arty base or 35k mass mega.
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The more prevalent the t1 stage is the better Cybran gets as a pick, but it just sucks at t2 and t3 stage. The only reason it got as high of a pick as it did in this tournament was because of the cancer tactics available to it (telelaser) and the boons of a clump of bp with hives. Those cancer tactics are getting general nerfs, so it's going to have less of that utility going for it as a joker card pick in teamgames and so it needs some actual, genuine good sides during the general mid-late game stages.
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Is this all balance related around 1 v 1? because my experiance and my groups experiance is quite the opposite. hell, in my TMM games its quite opposite.
In my last 20 games in either 3v3 or 4v4 there was these players:
Aeon: 15
UEF: 53 (Altough 1 3 v 3 was all UEF XD)
Cybran: 34
Sera: 28UEF is a bit skewed coz I always play UEF, but still aeon is picked half as much as the rest in my TMM range which is 1500.
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This was a teamgame tournament. Cybran is just terrible in teamgames, the faction is heavily frontloaded for t1 stage raiding which just doesn't happen in teamgames.
Of course UEF and Cybran get picked more in casual games because it's just the default factions. Aeon and Sera were always like 20% of the faction pick and Cyb and UEF were like 30%. Most people just don't care about what is actually good and can't tell how to actually use what is good.
Back when Cybran was insane OP, 19 of the top 20 ladder players strictly used Cybran. It didn't really change that a ton of people played UEF in casual games and the overall preferences across the playerbase stayed the same.
I strictly play UEF in casual games. For this tournament I rolled almost entirely Aeon.
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Silence, elite minority. The game balance shall be tailored to the majority's opinion. Can we get a poll going already?
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On a serious note I think this very clearly illustrates the way players at different levels see unit balance.
@firv said in Why don't we have t3 sera gunships, but we have this?:
Wait get out, cybran weak at t2 navy? Their t2 navy is opressive as fuuuck.
I personally don't think cybran t2 is bad because salem is alright, stealth is awesome and u always have frigates to put in formation to get the defender's advantage, and barracudas can be good too. Maybe just weak vs hover because salems cant hit shit
Their t2 air is arguable the strongest for snipes
I'd say aeon gunships are better. Aeon also has swiftwinds which at some point cannot be beaten by interceptors. Nothas outperform corsairs in t2 mex&pgen bombing, and notha and janus both are actually competent at winning air
Aeon has nothing on t3 land
This one's insane, the harbinger is the best t3 land unit in the game. It's fast, destroys t1, t2, pd, titans and loyalists, can surround, swarm, and beat percies and bricks, but that's not even needed because sniper bots exist.
So it's clear that balance views differ, but I strongly believe balance should be built around the top level of play. Otherwise, if cybran navy were nerfed, what could one possibly do as a cybran to beat a competent aeon/sera navy player, when they already have the edge as it stands now?
What could one possibly do to beat a competent aeon player in t3 land when their already insane harbinger gets another buff because the majority deemed it underwhelming? -
@sladownoob said in Why don't we have t3 sera gunships, but we have this?:
This one's insane, the harbinger is the best t3 land unit in the game. It's fast, destroys t1, t2, pd, titans and loyalists, can surround, swarm, and beat percies and bricks, but that's not even needed because sniper bots exist.
Okay this is totally not my opinion, but that might be coz I hardly ever see T3 aeon and thus it is never able to dominate like you say it does. I agree harbs are better then titans/loya, but they are also twice as expensive and not as fast. I have never had any issue with harbs vs percies/bricks coz percies/bricks are only 50% more expensive yet nearly have double the HP and quite a bit more range. So befor the first harb can even shoot at a group of percies theres already some casualties. Now throw in a GC and thats a whole diffrent story.
And at my level you just dont see that much snipers, because they require alot of attention coz if anything looks at it, they are dead. Sure get em in big enough numbers they are a manace, but again, have only seen that once or twice.
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Because it sounds like you’re playing games where it’s “make 10 of generic t3 unit, box select, and move it in.”
Harbs have insane utility due to their distribution of stats. 1 harb dropped in your back can kill not only all economy very quickly, but essentially deal with any land unit faster than it and run away from anything stronger than it for even more economic damage. Percy dies to a dozen labs. Brick is still good here, but this is just one example of how flexible Aeon is.
Current Aeon combines having a response for essentially every game situation with having insanely flexible, no brain units to spam and still get efficient trades. There’s hardly a decision tree of possible moves to expect the Aeon player to go through because everything is good and they’ll always have a possibility of counteracting your preemptive measure.
The topic of this whole thread is the perfect example btw, why the fuck does the faction with the most spammable shield have a dedicated antishield unit? Aeon is lucky they didn’t get that shit removed from their roster. Ridiculous faction.
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@ftxcommando said in Why don't we have t3 sera gunships, but we have this?:
Harbs have insane utility due to their distribution of stats. 1 harb dropped in your back can kill not only all economy very quickly, but essentially deal with any land unit faster than it and run away from anything stronger than it for even more economic damage. Percy dies to a dozen labs. Brick is still good here, but this is just one example of how flexible Aeon is.
For the same cost I can drop 2 titans, which have the same DPS and combinened more HP and move faster
@ftxcommando said in Why don't we have t3 sera gunships, but we have this?:
The topic of this whole thread is the perfect example btw, why the fuck does the faction with the most spammable shield have a dedicated antishield unit? Aeon is lucky they didn’t get that shit removed from their roster. Ridiculous faction.
This I do agree with though
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2 titans don’t fit in a t1 transport which is a very big deal for early t3 unit utility. Titans are also significantly worse in direct combat situations during the t3 stage.
Harbs maintain the capability to maneuver around t4s that titans/loyas do while maintaining solid concentration of dps/hp like brick/titan (obviously not to the same extent) and unlike othuum it can micro/dance.
All of that makes it flexible with some hole to be useful existing basically all the time.
