Points of Imbalance.

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@Psions said in Points of Imbalance.:

EDIT: Wrote up a long admittedly accusatory post and realized that I should wait until the next patch launches and give people the benefit of the doubt. In truth I have no idea whether this issue is being seriously considered or not. More communication from the balance team would help.

I'm just going to take a wait and see approach to this. Perhaps they'll address it.

I doubt that they're looking to sabotage SACUs. I imagine the SACU changes will be very positive for the game.

The part I don't know is whether they'll correct the issues people have been pointing out, but I have a hunch the patch is coming along so we'll know one way or the other before too long.

EDIT again: JaggedAppliance was in Aeolus, and he agreed that assault experimentals need a nerf. I don't know the guy and can't be sure he wasn't trolling or something, but I think he was being straightforward and thinks they need a nerf.

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8DCA39D4-D45D-42CB-84EE-09A4EF9580CE.jpeg

Don’t think that’s him saying t4 needs a nerf lol

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About support factories

I was sure that they have better mass/BP ratio than engineers
I was terribly wrong

tl;dr
Only T3 factory that better than hives is air

Name - BP - mass - mass/BP

--- Eng and stations
Eng T3  - 30  - 312  - 10,4
Hive    - 75  - 1050 - 14
Kennel  - 50  - 1050 - 21
--- T3 support
T3 Land - 90  - 1400 - 16
T3 Air  - 120 - 1510 - 12,6
T3 Navy - 150 - 2200 - 14,6
--- T2 support
T2 Land - 40 - 580  - 14,5
T2 Air  - 40 - 510  - 12,75
T2 Navy - 90 - 1100 - 12,2
--- T1 
T1 Land - 20 - 240  - 12
T1 Air  - 20 - 210  - 10,5
T1 Navy - 20 - 300  - 15

I suggest fixing this by buffing support factories BP or cost to point where mass/BP ratio is around 7-10

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Currently my impression from the community is that T3 land is uninteresting/boring for a plethora of reasons. @advena suggested this is because of support factories but @Azraeel suggested this is because of reclaim being too high for T3. Perhaps support factories could be buffed, but I have no clue. What I am curious about is the Reclaim values.
Why was it decided that Land unit reclaim is about ~81% of the original mass construction cost? Why not be 80% or 50% or 90%, etc... How would the game be impacted if the "percentage of original mass left over as reclaim" was reduced by some arbitrary amount? Would this solve some of the inadequacies of T3 land?
I am very curious to know the reasoning behind setting the wreck mass percentage to ~81%.

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Ask chris taylor

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He's out of the picture. I'm interested in people who actively work on the game, not some guy who's involvement in the current game is ~0%.
Another point of imbalance. The Percival is now the only T3 land unit to target the ACU over T1/T2 land units.
https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/3072
https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/3054
Consider making this standard to ALL factions or remove this change.

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"Consider making this standard to ALL factions or remove this change."

No.

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TY @keyser. My information was outdated and I was wrong 🙂

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@Fletching People don't have the forethought to realise that by increasing BP on T4 it also increases the earliest time a T4 might be up, meaning there is a greater window to eco before building relevant defensive structures.

They just think ooh Ras spam hive spam insta monkey.

The reason why T3 is stale, is because T3 mobile arty do not break the main base, they a gimped units and a successful viper spam would simply work better. T2 artillery at t3 stage is just too devestating for t3 maa.

So what you have nwo at t3 is 3 useful units

Long range, Mid range and raid units.

Aeon v Aeon t3 is much more interesting because of shield disruptors.

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@Psions said in Points of Imbalance.:

@Fletching People don't have the forethought to realise that by increasing BP on T4 it also increases the earliest time a T4 might be up, meaning there is a greater window to eco before building relevant defensive structures.

Yeah I am sure that increasing the BP of the Monkey from 0 to X will make it build your pgens faster... I am not sure if you realize but you don't defend only vs experimentals, if you play a decent map you have to maintain your map control and bcs your experimental takes longer to build you can't afford to neither eco more or build it too early cause before you would get it up your enemy would take most of your map control with his t3, then retreat it and use his defenders + Income advantage easily defend vs your last ditch effort experimental push.

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Tagada, what it will mean is that early monkey is viable for base killing. Instead with the nerfed t3 stage all we get is a firebase into eco, after the map has been drawn out with t1 and t2 skrimishes.

Okay I just tested it. T3 units cannot break a basic firebase while t2 units can. Brick is literally worse than Rhino spam. DPS and speed of brick is just depressing.

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Okay I just tested it. T3 units cannot break a basic firebase while t2 units can. Brick is literally worse than Rhino spam. DPS and speed of brick is just depressing.

Hey just as a pointer here,
T3 mobile arty with mobile shield or stealth is extremely good at killing firebases and t2 formatipns.

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T3 mobile arty gets wrecked by t2 arty, and t1 scout counters stealth.

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@Psions said in Points of Imbalance.:

@Fletching People don't have the forethought to realise that by increasing BP on T4 it also increases the earliest time a T4 might be up, meaning there is a greater window to eco before building relevant defensive structures.

They just think ooh Ras spam hive spam insta monkey.

The reason why T3 is stale, is because T3 mobile arty do not break the main base, they a gimped units and a successful viper spam would simply work better. T2 artillery at t3 stage is just too devestating for t3 maa.

So what you have nwo at t3 is 3 useful units

Long range, Mid range and raid units.

Aeon v Aeon t3 is much more interesting because of shield disruptors.

I have to keep repeating this, because I don't think people have really accepted this yet, but the 3696 nerf was a massive nerf, which reduced the combat effectiveness of T3 units by around 50%.

Have two current bricks fight one pre-3696 brick, and they're going to come out a bit even, with the pre-3696 brick perhaps killing both with a small amount of health left. Assuming you allow the pre-3696 brick to kite until the current brick catches it. I could be slightly off here, but I imagine it would be close.

Certain nerfs are multiplicative meaning that they stack in such a way that they drastically change unit balance.

Seemingly small changes to health and damage, when combined with other changes to say range can together significantly cripple a unit.

So if T3 seems weak, perhaps we should acknowledge that its weak because of patch 3696.

When you nerf a unit at a low tier, you have to then nerf all units at higher tiers, or the unit will be underpowered in comparison to units at higher tiers. The balance team did not do that for one reason or another.

What's most hilarious about all this, is I hunted down the discussion thread for that patch, and there was very little relevant discussion about these nerfs. People didn't realize how massive those changes were, and seemed not to consider the impact such changes would have on T3/T4 balance.

I think its clear it was a sloppy patch. They may have "fixed" T2/T3 balance, but they drastically reduced the effectiveness of T3 land versus both T4 and static structures in order to do it.

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