Points of Imbalance.

moses_the_red

@HoujouSatoko said in Points of Imbalance.:

moses, play a reasonable amount of 1v1.

Will that make these top level pros build more than 2 T3 land factories on land maps?

Explosive

2 t3 landfactourys actually sound very fine

moses_the_red

@herzer99 said in Points of Imbalance.:

2 t3 landfactourys actually sound very fine

Because why should players be expected to put a significant percentage of their mass into the game's late game land attack units?

biass

t3 spamming is t1 spamming with extra steps and is not cool or interesting gameplay

Explosive

2t3 factourys is a fucktom of ressources

moses_the_red

Ugh...

I notice a lot of changes to T1 units this patch. Labs, Mantis, Bombers, Scouts...

I notice some changes to T2 ranged bots in particular.

But apart from the SACUs which has been planned for years, there doesn't appear to be much on the slate for T3/T4.

Very ladder-centric patch, focused on units that are heavily used in ladder.

I am going to try to take a wait and see approach, and just trust them.

Its not easy, but maybe the SACU changes are intended to solve the problems I'm seeing, or maybe they're not intended to solve those problems but will solve them anyway.

Maybe they don't want to make changes to T3/T4 while introducing a major late game change in the form of the SACU changes.

And that's reasonable.

But it is difficult, because these patches only come once every 6 months, and the attitude of too many posters in here is that there is no issue, or that if the issue occurs on team maps it should be ignored.

And that's just wrong.

Psions

Just as some anecdotal evidence on what moses is saying.

In 1600 Dual Gap games i've yet to see T3 ever be spammed in significant proportions. Pushing always occurs with Chicken/GC/Megalit, and you might get 1 or 2 lone monkeys that manage to max their vet and become monsters.

Personally, I think T2 is the only stage in the game that provides varied land unit options. T2 has siege, utility, mid range, close range. As it stands unit diversity most to worst goes something like T2>T1>T4>T3

I would prefer to have a longer T2 phas,e, or for T3 insufficiencies to be fixed. As it stands the most diverse T3 army is Aeon. UEF "diversity" is a bit of a joke in that the MML and T3 arty perform the same essential functions, but the arty is almost always better. I would suggest upping the MML range to that of a fatboy.

@moses_the_red
The sacu changes don't combat any of the games problems. instead it just makes combative sacu less useful and this indirectly buffs using SACU as "income" units.

So the changes are fundamentally flawed.

TheWeakie

This post is deleted!

moses_the_red

@Psions said in Points of Imbalance.:

EDIT: Wrote up a long admittedly accusatory post and realized that I should wait until the next patch launches and give people the benefit of the doubt. In truth I have no idea whether this issue is being seriously considered or not. More communication from the balance team would help.

I'm just going to take a wait and see approach to this. Perhaps they'll address it.

I doubt that they're looking to sabotage SACUs. I imagine the SACU changes will be very positive for the game.

The part I don't know is whether they'll correct the issues people have been pointing out, but I have a hunch the patch is coming along so we'll know one way or the other before too long.

EDIT again: JaggedAppliance was in Aeolus, and he agreed that assault experimentals need a nerf. I don't know the guy and can't be sure he wasn't trolling or something, but I think he was being straightforward and thinks they need a nerf.

FtXCommando

Don’t think that’s him saying t4 needs a nerf lol

advena

About support factories

I was sure that they have better mass/BP ratio than engineers
I was terribly wrong

tl;dr
Only T3 factory that better than hives is air

Name - BP - mass - mass/BP

--- Eng and stations
Eng T3  - 30  - 312  - 10,4
Hive    - 75  - 1050 - 14
Kennel  - 50  - 1050 - 21
--- T3 support
T3 Land - 90  - 1400 - 16
T3 Air  - 120 - 1510 - 12,6
T3 Navy - 150 - 2200 - 14,6
--- T2 support
T2 Land - 40 - 580  - 14,5
T2 Air  - 40 - 510  - 12,75
T2 Navy - 90 - 1100 - 12,2
--- T1 
T1 Land - 20 - 240  - 12
T1 Air  - 20 - 210  - 10,5
T1 Navy - 20 - 300  - 15

I suggest fixing this by buffing support factories BP or cost to point where mass/BP ratio is around 7-10

Arran

Currently my impression from the community is that T3 land is uninteresting/boring for a plethora of reasons. @advena suggested this is because of support factories but @Azraeel suggested this is because of reclaim being too high for T3. Perhaps support factories could be buffed, but I have no clue. What I am curious about is the Reclaim values.
Why was it decided that Land unit reclaim is about ~81% of the original mass construction cost? Why not be 80% or 50% or 90%, etc... How would the game be impacted if the "percentage of original mass left over as reclaim" was reduced by some arbitrary amount? Would this solve some of the inadequacies of T3 land?
I am very curious to know the reasoning behind setting the wreck mass percentage to ~81%.

TheWeakie

Ask chris taylor

Arran

He's out of the picture. I'm interested in people who actively work on the game, not some guy who's involvement in the current game is ~0%.
Another point of imbalance. The Percival is now the only T3 land unit to target the ACU over T1/T2 land units.
https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/3072
https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/3054
Consider making this standard to ALL factions or remove this change.

keyser

https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/3072/commits/c07ae911ad28aba6d8fa57ebb94afcea4e68dd5f

Turinturambar

"Consider making this standard to ALL factions or remove this change."

No.

Arran

TY @keyser. My information was outdated and I was wrong

Psions

@Fletching People don't have the forethought to realise that by increasing BP on T4 it also increases the earliest time a T4 might be up, meaning there is a greater window to eco before building relevant defensive structures.

They just think ooh Ras spam hive spam insta monkey.

The reason why T3 is stale, is because T3 mobile arty do not break the main base, they a gimped units and a successful viper spam would simply work better. T2 artillery at t3 stage is just too devestating for t3 maa.

So what you have nwo at t3 is 3 useful units

Long range, Mid range and raid units.

Aeon v Aeon t3 is much more interesting because of shield disruptors.

Tagada

@Psions said in Points of Imbalance.:

@Fletching People don't have the forethought to realise that by increasing BP on T4 it also increases the earliest time a T4 might be up, meaning there is a greater window to eco before building relevant defensive structures.

Yeah I am sure that increasing the BP of the Monkey from 0 to X will make it build your pgens faster... I am not sure if you realize but you don't defend only vs experimentals, if you play a decent map you have to maintain your map control and bcs your experimental takes longer to build you can't afford to neither eco more or build it too early cause before you would get it up your enemy would take most of your map control with his t3, then retreat it and use his defenders + Income advantage easily defend vs your last ditch effort experimental push.

Psions

Tagada, what it will mean is that early monkey is viable for base killing. Instead with the nerfed t3 stage all we get is a firebase into eco, after the map has been drawn out with t1 and t2 skrimishes.

Okay I just tested it. T3 units cannot break a basic firebase while t2 units can. Brick is literally worse than Rhino spam. DPS and speed of brick is just depressing.