4v4 TMM Map List WIP - Community Feedback Welcome

@thomashiatt Of course you did okay in them. You are >2k in both ladder and global. There is not a single map in faf that you'll do poorly on.

As mentioned above, you fall far outside of the demographic of players I worry about here.

@FtXCommando I seemingly phrased my arguments wrong.
My concerns are not about people getting an 'unfairly high rating', or whatever.

I couldn't care less about people's imaginary internet numbers, but even if you do, you are right in that players will get a roughly accurate rating over time. The math guarantees it.

Essentially I'm worried about players with a huge fluctuation in skill because it makes games bad to play. An exaggerated toy example:

Lets say you have someone that plays like a 1k player on all maps. The only exception being setons, on which they magically get replaced by tagada.

What's going to happen with this player? Well, they'll settle at a ranking of 1.2k or something, depending on the size of the map pool, by loosing slightly more on all non-setons map but in exchange winning every setons. The rating algorithm works.

So what's the problem then? Well, every match-made setons with them in the team is essentially over before it began. There is nothing a team of 1ks can do against a tagada, even if they know what they are up against.

Games wont be fun for either of the both sides. Smurf allegations will get thrown around, people will go to bed angry, children will cry, marriages will end, villages will burn to the ground, entire countries will fall.

Do you want this ftx? I sure don't

(Btw. I think there are good arguments for including setons in the pool eventually, just not yet.)

if you have a tagada with 3 noobs,he will eventually lose against an average squad in the long run in teamgames on setons if not on some vital spot like air o smth,not to mention that it can be just sammed up and then it's just over due to the resource advantage

Imo boys around 1k dont have any idea on how this game is played so why would they understand meta? All they have is whored bo. Im not even mentioning how well it can be executed. I am against setons because it will bring alot of drama into pure tmm. We kinda cant afford to have drama in 4v4 as we fucking did in 2v2 so that 4v4 would not be completely fucked.

The babyrage over 2v2 had nothing to do with maps but rather some dudes not understanding long term benefits because their points got nerfed. Also not sure how it can be considered fucked when it made 2v2s go from the most unpopular game size to about as popular as 1v1 when controlled for player count.

I don't understand the arguments about sentons because the pool that sentons will be in will be a pool that is essentially pure 20x20s that play like sentons. You're going to have selkie. You're going to have beetles. You're going to have Requisite. You're going to have Metir. You're going to have huge wonder. All of these maps involve dudes that if they collapse, the game runs the risk of being over. The only thing about sentons is that it has a more refined meta, but that has such a small impact on long term rating when it isn't guaranteed to be in every pool nor is it ever more than 1 map in the pool. Not to mention a lot of the dudes that really go hard on sentons pretty much never play anything but sentons so I doubt they would even use the matchmaker anyway.

Also, there is no 1k rated dude that plays like Tagada. The dude will have a more refined build that gets him ASF out quicker, but he is still a 1k that thinks having more ASF means he won his lane and doesn't help his navy with torps or actually abuse his air advantage.

To me it's the Open Palms or Badlands of 4v4 TMM, every old dude has 10,000 games on it and knows exactly where and when to send engies. So I lose my first couple games on it. I watch replays, I learn, and with every game being less and less efficient at making you better I eventually get to a "good enough" level just as how all new players can eventually catch up to old players.

@Rezy-Noob Yes, but it wont be tagada with 3 noobs vs 4 1,5ks. It will be tagada with 3 noobs vs 4 noobs, because he won't, and can't, be balanced correctly.

@ftxcommando said in 4v4 TMM Map List WIP - Community Feedback Welcome:

I don't understand the arguments about sentons because the pool that sentons will be in will be a pool that is essentially pure 20x20s that play like sentons. You're going to have selkie. You're going to have beetles. You're going to have Requisite. You're going to have Metir. You're going to have huge wonder. All of these maps involve dudes that if they collapse, the game runs the risk of being over.

The difference is that a significant amount of 1k players has whored BOs/strategies on setons. Those BOs/strategies exist for other maps too, but almost no 1k player knows them, so it doesn't matter.

The only thing about sentons is that it has a more refined meta, but that has such a small impact on long term rating

Yes! The problem is exactly that we only have one rating system, average long term rating, that can't accurately reflect someone being 1k on all maps, but 1.5k on setons.
Long term rating impact will be minimal. Games on setons will still be fucked though.

when it isn't guaranteed to be in every pool nor is it ever more than 1 map in the pool.

Yes, but I fear every time it will get played, it will be a shitfest.
Would you include another map that basically guarantees bad, unfun gameplay? No you wouldn't, so why would you accept that just cause the map is called setons?

Not to mention a lot of the dudes that really go hard on sentons pretty much never play anything but sentons so I doubt they would even use the matchmaker anyway.

So your solution for the health of the 4v4 matchmaker is to just hope that a large minority of players never plays it??

Also, there is no 1k rated dude that plays like Tagada.

Yes. It was an exaggerated example.

The dude will have a more refined build that gets him ASF out quicker, but he is still a 1k that thinks having more ASF means he won his lane and doesn't help his navy with torps or actually abuse his air advantage.

Maybe, but in that cause he isn't really underrated on setons, he just has a whored BO. There are lots of 1ks that have both a whored BO and know (roughly) how to use it.
The latter will just builds a couple strats and win the game against their min-13-first-asf opponent.

start a petition to ban tagada from 4v4,ez

but you are actually right,probably need a different equation for balancing 4v4s ngl

This argument can be applied to not including wonder or canis in a share until death 4v4, why is that any different?

I don't know how you have the conclusion that I don't want senton players to play the matchmaker. Including sentons is more likely to get them to play it than not including it. But if they're Foley equivalents I pretty much expect them to never play it until it's a 100% senton roll chance.

@rezy-noob said in 4v4 TMM Map List WIP - Community Feedback Welcome:

start a petition to ban tagada from 4v4,ez

It's all tagadas fault :sad_cowboy:

but you are actually right,probably need a different equation for balancing 4v4s ngl

I'd love that, but I don't think its feasable. "map specific rating" or whatever has been a discussion forever, or at least for the 2 years that I have been part of faf, and I don't think a reasonable implementation exists.

It's also not really a problem for any map but setons. Even the second worst offender, dual gap, is not nearly as bad: The spawns are close, the roles overlap and the map is inherently much more defensive.

Over the last year, I have played through the entire gamut of setons games, from 1k to now being almost 2k. Even at 2k, the difference between an experienced setoner vs someone less experienced is significant but its certainly not game-ending.

It's completely incomparable though to having a '1k' on mid that has a BO and walks mid immediately being up against another '1k' that just stands in his mid base and goes for the fac, 2pgen, 4mex opening before leisurely leaving his base at min 4.
In a game full of 1ks, game is just over at that point

You also haven't addressed anything about every other full share 20x20 being these giant spread out base navy/land hybrid gameplay maps. If you're great at selkie and metir how are you not going to translate that over to sentons? Because you sent your 4th engie rather than your 5th to the beach 3 mex expansion? This reads like you expect the rest of the pool to be gun spam 10x10 which is just not true with the full share/share until death divide implementation.

@ftxcommando said in 4v4 TMM Map List WIP - Community Feedback Welcome:

This argument can be applied to including wonder or canis in a share until death 4v4, why is that any different?

Closer spawns, much sooner enemy interaction, less unique/specialized roles. See above.

I don't know how you have the conclusion that I don't want senton players to play the matchmaker. Including sentons is more likely to get them to play it than not including it. But if they're Foley equivalents I pretty much expect them to never play it until it's a 100% senton roll chance.

You are correct in that setons players wont all just switch over from custom to 4v4, but in principle we do want to make the mode welcoming for everyone.
I fear a future where every setons player that queues into the 4v4 matchmaker makes the games worse for everyone.

You also haven't addressed anything about every other full share 20x20 being these giant spread out base navy/land hybrid gameplay maps. If you're great at selkie and metir how are you not going to translate that over to sentons? Because you sent your 4th engie rather than your 5th to the beach 3 mex expansion?

Of course it translates, but a much smaller number of "normal" players has whored BOs/strategies and dozens of games of experience on them.

Even at the 1k level, getting the island on rock, vs getting it stolen comes down to a difference of, at most, 20 seconds at min 4. And not only that, 1k players actually know the BOs to achieve that!

The difference between someone going for a normal BO on mid, vs someone that leaves the base right after the first fac is gigantic. At the one 1k level it's game ending.

Stuff like that wont happen regularly on any other 20x20 full share map, because basically no 1k player knows those maps as well as the aforementioned large minority of setoners knows setons

Less specialized roles? You can automatically lose wonder open if you have a mid player that knows you can rush 2nd air first bomber off of nothing but tree reclaim and hydro which can then kill a side player's early engies and allow your side player to scale twice as fast and crush sub min 8. Oh no the 1k that knows about that will now ruin the game.

Most close contact drops come down to the first minute, senton isn't special and plenty of maps have the gameplay (metir, requisite, battle for schmal).

There are also many 20x20s that have reclaim in mid (requisite, schmal, huge wonder, desert strike), senton isn't special.

I recognize that there is a large minority with lots of senton experience. I also recognize these guys are going to be better on a map pool built around maps that play like sentons. I don't see any sort of person that is 1000 at maps like selkie, metir, requisite, and lena river being somehow hugely shit at sentons. And if you can't apply your senton BOs to these other maps because your knowledge is that disgustingly singular then you're just a bad player that should have low rating. Really those senton players should be gaining rating in general with a full share 20x20 pool.

To re-iterate: You are correct. Setons, the map, isn't special.
Setoners, the subgroup of players, is, purely due to their size and gamecount.

You can have someone with a whored BO/strategy on literally any faf map. It is just highly impactful, and due to the quantity of games, much more likely to happen on setons

@ftxcommando said in 4v4 TMM Map List WIP - Community Feedback Welcome:

I recognize that there is a large minority with lots of senton experience. I also recognize these guys are going to be better on a map pool built around maps that play like sentons. I don't see any sort of person that is 1000 at maps like selkie, metir, requisite, and lena river being somehow hugely shit at sentons. And if you can't apply your senton BOs to these other maps because your knowledge is that disgustingly singular then you're just a bad player that should have low rating. Really those senton players should be gaining rating in general with a full share 20x20 pool.

Who cares about rating? Fuck rating. Rating only matters in so far as it creates balanced games, which it wont for those disgustingly singular knowledge having players.
And there are in fact quite a lot of them. Or at least many more than you'd want for consistently balanced and fun games on setons

You and I disagree because I don't think sentons is some super hard, complex, nuanced big brain thing that the dime a dozen 20x20 full share maps don't prepare you for. Your BOs don't make you turn from generic 800 to 1600. If it did, it applies to many of the other maps in the pool unless you literally play by following an excel sheet you made for yourself. And the people that do that aren't going to play a matchmaker that intentionally gives you randomized slots and randomized mates and randomized maps. You'll stay in your comfy 800-1200 senton fixed balance game where you choose Cybran to make hive RAS boys since it's what Yudi did in the senton game you watched and wrote down in your excel sheet.

@ftxcommando said in 4v4 TMM Map List WIP - Community Feedback Welcome:

You and I disagree because I don't think sentons is some super hard, complex, nuanced big brain thing that the dime a dozen 20x20 full share maps don't prepare you for.

I actually agree with you here. Setons, in itself, isn't any harder or easier to play than any of the other, similar 20x20 full share maps.

And yes, playing those will prepare you well enough for setons. The problem is that playing mostly setons doesn't really prepare you for e.g. wonder because this:

Your BOs don't make you turn from generic 800 to 1600.

doesn't apply in reverse. A generic 1k wont become a 1.5k overnight by learning some BOs.

But a mostly setons 1k will be a 500 on any other map, that still plays 500 above its new rank on setons.

And the people that do that aren't going to play a matchmaker that intentionally gives you randomized slots and randomized mates and randomized maps. You'll stay in your comfy 800-1200 senton fixed balance game where you choose Cybran to make hive RAS boys.

How'd you know? Shouldn't we at least consider that they might want to branch out and, if they do, make sure that they don't unintentionally ruin the game for anyone else?

If they would want to branch out, they don't care that they will ruin a game because they are so OP that their tmm rating doesn't account for their senton skill. In fact, it would encourage them to play as everyone likes being the low rated guy that crushes higher rated people, especially at the 800-1200 rating where you are literally nobody and only recognized for what your rating is. By including sentons, you only make it more likely that these excel sheet dudes MIGHT play as at least they can feel comfortable on one of the potential maps.

And no, I disagree entirely that some sentoner will be 500 on many of the 20x20s and 1000 on sentons. And again, wonder wouldn't be in a full share pool, it would be share until death. Huge Wonder would be full share, but that's because it's a hugely spread out land based 20x20 with tons of tree reclaim and massive rock buildup in mid to express control over.

You know to reclaim trees? You know to make an air factory? You know to drop sometimes? You know to hit mex upgrade button? Congrats, you're 1000 on every 20x20. Only thing that is different between Huge Wonder and sentons is that you need to actually learn about units expressing map control in order to keep your eco safe since I imagine most low level sentons don't involve drops or t2 air harassing eco and instead is two dudes massing up navy to smash into each other.

@ftxcommando said in 4v4 TMM Map List WIP - Community Feedback Welcome:

If they would want to branch out, they don't care that they will ruin a game because they are so OP that their tmm rating doesn't account for their senton skill.

We shouldn't care that they don't care about ruining games. We should only care that they will ruin games, regardless of why.

In fact, it would encourage them to play as everyone likes being the low rated guy that crushes higher rated people, especially at the 800-1200 rating where you are literally nobody and only recognized for what your rating is. By including sentons, you only make it more likely that these excel sheet dudes MIGHT play as at least they can feel comfortable on one of the potential maps.

Possibly, but I can't see it being a huge draw if one out of every ten maps is setons. I can see it being a huge problem though if one out of every ten games is unfun and over before it began though.

And no, I disagree entirely that some sentoner will be 500 on many of the 20x20s and 1000 on sentons. And again, wonder wouldn't be in a full share pool, it would be share until death. Huge Wonder would be full share, but that's because it's a hugely spread out land based 20x20 with tons of tree reclaim and massive rock buildup in mid to express control over.

You know to reclaim trees? You know to make an air factory? You know to drop sometimes? You know to hit mex upgrade button? Congrats, you're 1000 on every 20x20. Only thing that is different between Huge Wonder and sentons is that you need to actually learn about units expressing map control in order to keep your eco safe since I imagine most low level sentons don't involve drops or t2 air harassing eco and instead is two dudes massing up navy to smash into each other.

Yes, that's exactly it! It hasn't been that long since I started learning faf, so I still intimately understand how complex, and map dependent, this favorite game of ours is.

Saying that they "just" need to learn about "units expressing map control in order to keep your eco safe is" is technically true, but withholds that this "just" is like a dozen hours of experience, or maybe more.

So yes, map specialist players will get more general gameplay knowledge over time and in a couple of months everything I'm describing might not even be worth talking about anymore.

Or 4v4 could be dead by then because nobody wants to take the risk to sit in a queue for 10 minutes, just to play another shitty unbalanced setons that's over before it began

There will be some unbalanced games at the start anyway, because we initialize from global. There is no way to gauge how well the very different global experiences translate to skill in a new matchmaker, that's why we increase the sigma to keep this phase short, but it will still be there. In your arguing it seems like you are forgetting that the 4v4 full share queue will basically consist of maps that play roughly like setons for the most part. You already conceded that there is not really an inherent difference between setons and other 20x20 maps with spread out spawns. You still argue about setons specifically, because you think seton's knowledge will translate so bad to other maps to easily make a difference of over 500 rating? Seems pretty inconsitent to me.

What the map pool team could do to play it super safe is to leave setons out of the first pool and only include it in the second pool. This way nobody can blame unbalanced games on the setons bo whores. But imo it is not really needed to do that.

@blackyps said in 4v4 TMM Map List WIP - Community Feedback Welcome:

You still argue about setons specifically, because you think seton's knowledge will translate so bad to other maps to easily make a difference of over 500 rating?

Yes. Specialized knowledge of any map translates badly to other maps, because generalization is actually quite hard.

If you had taken 1.5k me from half a year ago and put me on any non setons map, even if it was a 20x20 fullshare map, I wouldn't have played above a 1k level for the first couple matches and would have needed dozens of games to even approach 1.3k performance on those.

I'm almost certainly an extreme example here (even today I'm still hundreds of rank better on setons than on other maps, because I like grinding the same shit over and over again until I "get it") but I know there are quite a few people who play 90%+ setons, in the same way there are quite a lot of people who play 90%+ dual gap.

What the map pool team could do to play it super safe is to leave setons out of the first pool and only include it in the second pool. This way nobody can blame unbalanced games on the setons bo whores. But imo it is not really needed to do that.

Well, perception is important, as you can see from all the people blaming BO whores for their 1k ladder match losses. Even if I am completely wrong here, I think there is an argument to be made to keep setons out of the first ladder pool, just to avoid the impression of BO whores ruining the game.

I think I have made my point though.

To re-iterate: This is not about people getting an unfairly low or high 4v4 matchmaker rank. Internet points don't matter.

This is purely about having fun games for people in the <1.5k regime and unbalanced games of setons specifically might be very common there, while not being fun at all.

I think setons should be in the pool eventually (I do love the map afterall), just not at the beginning.