New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements
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@spikeynoob said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:
Why does anything have to change? All that change will do is mess up what we have going now and their is no real downside to what we have going now.
Why do you think it will be messed up, specifically? I’m really unsure how to comment on this as it’s vague.
For instance, why would a new PC mess up the legend of stars tournament from happening?
Why would a new PC mess up the ladder and tmm pools?
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I agree that the role of Player Councilor has gotten too extensive, and that is part of the problem. FTX does do some things well, but he seems blind to a lot of the negative impacts he has on a lot of people, and he doesn't seem to realize the benefits that could be created by properly splitting the Player Councilor position...
However, the split would need to be well-designed with clear distinctions. Personally, I see a lot of merit in the idea of splitting off position(s) for 'Matchmaker Leader' or 'Tournaments Leader,' with all the relevant powers and responsibilities included. Then people could elect candidates who they think would do the best job for each of those specific positions. However, it seems that FTX is far too power hungry to ever want to split the position in a way that involves him giving up any significant amount of power. -
@morax i feel like all the advantages of ftx will disappear then we will wait for whoever replaces him to learn the position and release their own stuff. For example faf live or the discord upgrades. I have nothing against u, i just like how ftx is doing things rn.
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Brutus has more responsibilities to manage than I, but Brutus has a team of several developers putting tons of their own hours to maintain various areas of the client and so he can freely delegate several responsibilities to said individuals. He is still ultimately the final voice on large scale development decisions.
Likewise, instead of magically hoping that splitting the role will lead to more activity, you could, you know, actually help out now. Since that doesn't happen and instead I need to deal with random dudes promising to do N+1 of what I do, I need to actively maintain more things than other councillors do. I'd like to throw the power grasping accusation right back at you. It just seems like you want to split the role because you have zero credibility or experience in any PC duties and are hoping to split the position up so it wouldn't count against you.
People seem to forget PC is what it currently is because I built the position, quite literally, from the ground up. When I got the spot in 2018 the total of tools I had available to me were a google calendar that only like 2 TDs actually used. Couldn't
change ladder on my own. Had no actual funds available to me. Nothing related to a system for matchmaker. Zero information about TrueSkill beyond what I could figure out myself. Zero insight into tournaments. No way to contact trainers, gauge them, or work with them. Nothing about who to contact for what or what was currently going on in the client. The reason this position has the breadth it currently has is because I made it have it. I made it have it because I can do the work, the work benefits FAF, and the best path forward is for it to be under my active management.You can't handle what I currently do? Great. Find somebody to delegate the respective responsibilities to or find the time in your own schedule to do all of it or explain that you will be downscaling what I currently do. Doesn't require a new council seat, same as we don't need a java server councillor, java client councillor, and python server councillor.
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@spikeynoob said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:
@morax i feel like all the advantages of ftx will disappear then we will wait for whoever replaces him to learn the position and release their own stuff. For example faf live or the discord upgrades. I have nothing against u, i just like how ftx is doing things rn.
Hmmm... I guess I did a bad job explaining myself in my application, then.
The discord channel is something that I can do and would maintain mostly the same as well. I built a M&M council channel from the ground up and can easily apply that knowledge to the FAF main discord. This is not something you would see disappear, but only improve.
As for the TMM/ladder pools, I will remind you I have 6-7 years experience making maps like Adaptive Crateria, Adaptive Maridia, Frithen, etc. I can debug, fix, and evaluate maps 100x faster than FTX and would not require outsourcing of help with this area, which leads to me favoring other areas of my main concern: the complexity and loss of Tournament Directors.
I cannot speak for everyone, but I helped out TD'ing the LoTS tourney last year and it was miserable. FTX has developed such a complicated system that I believe it is why no one wants to do it anymore. This is a HUGE problem for the competitive scene and has forced him to do things like use a annual participation in events and ladder league to build points for qualification in LoTS.
Just a couple days ago I listened to @Tagada express concern about how he can't get games in ladder, so people ahead of him in current could simply refuse to play and stay ahead.
There are more examples I could use to discuss with you and I hope you realize that FTX system has flaws. I want to keep things more simple so the jobs are more attractive to individuals to help out again. There is no need to have such things as map pool denial, faction vetoes, etc. You can argue the "mirror faction" issue is a top issue and complaint, but is it really worth it at the cost of losing so many TDs? We are down to Swkoll, Dragun, and FTX himself as official TDs. There were at least 8 or more if I recall correctly in the past.
I am not sure how to convince you why I would not need "to learn the system" as you describe. My experience with FAF starting in 2013 has taught me how to run and manage these things plenty.
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@ftxcommando said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:
Likewise, instead of magically hoping that splitting the role will lead to more activity, you could, you know, actually help out now
FTX, when I try to help out with things within the PC 'domain', you usually shut me down or dismiss my ideas. I have tried. You even shut down my suggestions where I was willing to do the work for them, such as with weekly or monthly polls that could get a section in the news or an unofficial tournaments section on the forums (as a more casual alternative to your frustrating system... I know of potential tournaments that didn't happen because of FTX). It doesn't have to be technically within your power for you to use your influence as PC to shut down people's ideas, unfortunately... Perhaps we should talk about the times you've abused your power and censored me for voicing concerns about you abusing your power and making FAF more undemocratic...
So, I usually help out with other things that are more safely outside of your 'domain' as PC because you are so often caustic, dismissive, and controlling in the face of new or different ideas.
I believe the PC position should be split to have a separate 'Tournaments Leader' position and or a separate 'Matchmaker Leader' position in addition to the main PC position because I believe that doing that would be in the best interests of FAF, regardless of whether you, Morax, or I become the next PC. There is a lot of quality and utility in the concept of the division of labor into specialized roles... that's a massive part of how civilization progressed, and it would allow more specialized focuses for FAF within what is currently the PC 'domain'.
In regards to council seats, I am not saying that these new positions would necessarily need to get council seats. Frankly, my goal is to improve FAF and make it better for the overall community.
pfp credit to gieb
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@morax fair enough. So you think that if you get voted in you will be able to pick up everything ftx is doing without much of a learning curve? It definitely makes me more open to you or others getting the position.
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@morax said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:
I can debug, fix, and evaluate maps 100x faster than FTX and would not require outsourcing of help with this area,
Would that be why when you were on the Matchmaker Team and I gave you a list of maps that simply needed slots adjusted for tmm you never did it and I instead had to go and get svenni to do it.
FTX has developed such a complicated system that I believe it is why no one wants to do it anymore. This is a HUGE problem for the competitive scene and has forced him to do things like use a annual participation in events and ladder league to build points for qualification in LoTS.
The notion that LotS having things like faction and map veto is a causal force on why other tournaments aren't hosted is so beyond reason I literally don't even understand how I'm supposed to address it. You do know that tournaments aren't required by law to follow LotS format, right? How in the world would it stop anybody from hosting their own event?
I made ladder league and other events because I consider activity at the high levels to be just as imperative to the survival of the competitive community as an ever increasing skill level. I intend to reflect that through events that reward activity and give players with a foot in the door of the FAF pantheon of God Players a chance to improve by playing one another in something that later gives them a chance to expose themselves to said God Players in the larger tournament events.
Just a couple days ago I listened to @Tagada express concern about how he can't get games in ladder, so people ahead of him in current could simply refuse to play and stay ahead.
Yeah and now Tagada is like 3-4 games away from basically having a guaranteed spot in the tournament since Thomas has no interest in playing, what's your point?
Tagada is practically guaranteed a slot in LotS in the first place as he will perform superbly in Swkoll's tournaments as well as the mini-LotS events I'll end up hosting prior to December.
There are more examples I could use to discuss with you and I hope you realize that FTX system has flaws. I want to keep things more simple so the jobs are more attractive to individuals to help out again. There is no need to have such things as map pool denial, faction vetoes, etc. You can argue the "mirror faction" issue is a top issue and complaint, but is it really worth it at the cost of losing so many TDs?
I'll wait for you to explain this Olympic level leap in logic.
I am not sure how to convince you why I would not need "to learn the system" as you describe. My experience with FAF starting in 2013 has taught me how to run and manage these things plenty.
Yeah if only we had people that went into your tournament management history already.
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@emperor_penguin said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:
FTX, when I try to help out with things within the PC 'domain', you usually shut me down or dismiss my ideas.
The only time this has ever happened was when you wanted to join the Matchmaker Team. I gave you a list of maps and told you to put them in order from best to worst in your opinion. I then asked you to justify your placements. No one that was on the team at the time agreed with your assessment of the maps I gave you, both in terms of placement and your rationale for placing them as you did.
In fact, I literally worked with you on map designs to improve them and try out new ideas. I told you to make a map which utilizes the map expansion script and collaborated with you on the design, but unfortunately it was considered too much of a gimmick by the rest of the team so I never put it into ladder.
I have tried. You even shut down my suggestions where I was willing to do the work for them, such as with weekly or monthly polls
People can make polls as they like, there's even a Discord role to ping for surveys that I made. It doesn't mean the polls will result in any policy change unless it's considered pertinent to the policy by the contributor team managing said policy. Just as Deribus made a poll on how people feel about naval balance and it was given an announcement ping, you can do similar things. But it doesn't mean that the balance team is going to go and adjust the game because of what a poll says.
an unofficial tournaments section on the forums (as a more casual alternative to your frustrating system... I know of potential tournaments that didn't happen because of FTX).
The "frustrating system" is giving me a synopsis of a tournament prior to a post so that I can give suggestions to the format to better fit the intended objective. This accomplishes several things, for example:
- It stops incredibly long tournaments which new TDs are predisposed to creating
- It makes people aware of the negatives of a format that they must be prepared to face, like tiebreakers for a round robin or the built in delay for a Double Elimination format.
- It prevents tension of tournaments claiming the same time as other events.
There has literally never been a tournament that I said "you cannot post" but just about every tournament has received some level of input to refine the format from me. Some more than others. I have done "you need to reschedule the time" requests, though. I guess that's the tyranny part.
Perhaps we should talk about the times you've abused your power and censored me for voicing concerns about you abusing your power and making FAF more undemocratic...
Do it.
So, I usually help out with other things that are more safely outside of your 'domain' as PC because you are so often caustic, dismissive, and controlling in the face of new or different ideas.
You have never made a tournament. You are not a trainer. You were rejected for reviewing maps by a team of what would be your peers and assuming you get elected and don't remove the whole team, would still BE your peers. You are also hardly active on any public FAF medium (forums/discord/aeolus).
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@FtXCommando should we bring up the clan wars that you hosted that never finished? Stop with the negative campaigning. I am not going to reply to you anymore because you have your own bad history, too.
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@spikeynoob said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:
@morax fair enough. So you think that if you get voted in you will be able to pick up everything ftx is doing without much of a learning curve? It definitely makes me more open to you or others getting the position.
Yes. FTX can try and say I cannot, but in all seriousness, if you look at the posts for WWPC I was making map pools and running events long before he.
The reason him and others have "bad bad Morax" tourney issues that were posted by Blodir and Arch is simply because I have far more under my belt than he. I guarantee you in time FTX will make mistakes as well, which is fine, because we are both human beings and imperfect. I don't mind apologizing and promising to improve, better myself after these examples of imperfection.
I am fairly certain if you read my reply to arch you will see that I recognized the issue and avoided doing it again with Swkoll.
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Sure, my first tournament that went super over ambitious because I had zero guidance from any TD and resulted in me burning out due to the fact I had to spent several hours a day checking to see who came on for the time they scheduled on their own. Ever wonder why I make it an objective to have a veteran TD review a tournament format prior to it being posted? That tournament burned me out so bad I didn't even want to host anything for a full year after.
Does this compare to keeping a bad tournament rule out of spite because someone pointed it out and then canceling all your events because someone corrected your interpretation of past events?
Does it compare to you refusing funds to players because of a personal beef that either
A) in your interpretation was about mapping which has zero relation whatsoever to tournaments in the first place (imagine I refused to pay out TURBO2's prize funds because I think he talks too much like feather)
B) in other interpretations was because they were tired of playing a perpetual tiebreaker that you hosted and you took it out on them in a future event.What about reneging on funds in Swkoll's events because you didn't like the player quality that got into the event?
You want history here you go:
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/1595/stats-from-10000-of-high-level-1v1-faf-tournamentsI have likely personally given out over half of all FAF prize funds ever. Has there ever been a comment on my failure to give out funds? Have I ever canceled an event? Have I failed to account for criticism in tournament formats and adjust them when necessary?
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You posted a meme in reply to my event instead of suggesting or offering help. I think that says enough about FTX pre player council with a manger hat on. People may not know it, but the chats we had outside that thread in private message was you showing a complete lack of compassion and only the ability to discount me as a contributor.
Good luck, bud. Done talking to you.
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What's the offer to help on a rule requiring 350 ladder games that got randomly added onto a tournament? It's a bad rule and I pointed out why it was bad, because it restricted a top active player from being able to play.
We can bring up the chats you had with Farm prior to this random tournament rule if you want to talk about compassion. You recall saying he was Dead-Metal and that he would be banned from all your tournament events even though the moderation team told you he wasn't Dead-Metal? You called that "a silly joke." Sadly for a silly joke, you went through a lot of hassle demanding moderation action in the moderation slack channel.
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By the way, one last point: you have never withheld funds, not your own because you don't donate your own.
Want to explain why you have never donated to any events yourself? Your own personal money like I have?
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morax said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:
I built a M&M council channel from the ground up and can easily apply that knowledge to the FAF main discord.
I was going to bring this up as part of my “list of questions” that I didn’t post, mainly because the questions were redundant.
But I wanted to clarify this because it came up again, you do remember that there was a M&M server before yours right? The second one was mostly a clone.
I wanted to make sure because you said this earlier:
For nearly 2 years I was the maps and modifications community councilor where I spent a majority of the time helping people and creating a learning tool. My best achievements - in my opinion - were creating a series of documents that had a list of all the references and tutorials possible. This was a necessary step in figuring out what the community knows - together - so that we can move forward and improve.
If you look at the #mapping-resources channel in the primary discord, this has been updated from my own list and improved by biass (thanks for doing that! Looks great!)..
You are aware that the links in that document, as well as the layout from the first server are mine, right? I still have the original resources page on my test server from when I made them in 2018. Even the bit.ly links - which cannot be duplicated - are the same.
That’s not to say you didn’t make any of your document because I’m sure you added some links. But I didn’t like how my work was being used in an application. I was originally going to suggest choosing something else? I’m sure there is something you could use to sell yourself.
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Let me first say again, im not trying to support anybodys run on a potential split up positon here. There would of course have to be a new election for that, because it could interest people that are not interested at all in the current PC position.
@ftxcommando said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:
Brutus has more responsibilities to manage than I, but Brutus has a team of several developers putting tons of their own hours to maintain various areas of the client and so he can freely delegate several responsibilities to said individuals. He is still ultimately the final voice on large scale development decisions.
Not really. Brutus is trying to keep the maintenance workload as low as possible, because he is responsible for keeping stuff running. And the other developers tend to understand that, and therefore ask Brutus if stuff they want to do is a good idea ("read: has acceptable maintenance burden").
Thats not "ultimately being the final voice on large scale development decisions". Brutus was neither the last voice on the client, nor on ICE nor is he the last voice on TMM, because its not necessary for him to be that in general.
Anyway, the argument that "PC should do a lot because Admin does a lot" makes no sense anyway, there is no logic here that i can see.
Likewise, instead of magically hoping that splitting the role will lead to more activity, you could, you know, actually help out now.
If that is your honest opinion, we should just remove the PC position entirely. Because you know, you could do the things you do as well without holding an official title.
Which of course makes no sense, because the title does in fact give you something. It allows you to represent a part or function of FAF officially and with authority, and it adds a tiny bit of transparency for less involved people.
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@FtXCommando and @Morax i have one last question on this topic. One of u will lose, of you are that one will you still contribute in these areas even if u are not PC? Are you willing to commit to any specific responsibilities?
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@spikeynoob said in New Player Councilor Discussion + Removal Announcements:
@FtXCommando and @Morax i have one last question on this topic. One of u will lose, of you are that one will you still contribute in these areas even if u are not PC? Are you willing to commit to any specific responsibilities?
I have been contributing my own time and efforts to the community since 2014. I do not plan to stop making maps, hosting events, helping people when needed, and plenty more.
As long as FAF exists I will enjoy playing the game with people here and building it. And as someone with a family and tough job as an engineer, I think that says a lot.
