About Neroxis map generator...

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Map knowledge is mostly negligible until you get in the top 50 or so. You are vastly overestimating people's map knowledge advantage.

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@femtozetta said in About Neroxis map generator...:

Map knowledge is mostly negligible until you get in the top 50 or so. You are vastly overestimating people's map knowledge advantage.

I think map knowledge counts for heaps in the 1500 ish ladder matches. I can rehearse the build from a much better player, but my opponent cannot improvise it.

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If you’re 1500 and utilize map knowledge, it just means your dynamic game ability is shittier than the 1500 without the map knowledge. You’re both still 1500.

This isn’t sentons where people enter a rating ecosystem entirely separate from the rest of global rating and so there is a sharp disconnect. It’s ladder and you get put against a generally similar level of competency. The illusion that a 700 rated guy that can’t read basic maps will somehow be able to read random maps well is just that, an illusion to explain their rating/losses.

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The point is that only in high rating you will get to the point where you need to play a map a lot to defeat someone who played that map a lot because only up there the small differences matter.
Or are the few times you have to play a map on lower ratings to know what's up really such an issue and this is what you are talking about?

1500 is already top 80 btw, so pretty close to what I estimated.

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@femtozetta said in About Neroxis map generator...:

Map knowledge is mostly negligible until you get in the top 50 or so. You are vastly overestimating people's map knowledge advantage.

That's totally wrong. I have plenty of "build order wins" at the 1k level and having a good idea about the "meta" of various maps has at times helped me tremendously. Sniping a transport on a transport rush map is an example of that. It happens.

The key is what FtX wrote: if you're 1500, it means there are holes in your game. (Same for 1100, 900, 700, 500 etc. etc. etc.). At the 500 level, these holes are big enough to fly an Ahwassa through. Nobody who is around 500 rating should be afraid of going up against a 500-rated player. Fight it out and see what happens.

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The value of map knowledge is not relevant to the discussion.

Even if you’re missing both your hands and can’t actually play the game, the system will attempt to find you someone who is equally incapable.

If you’re new and don’t know maps, you’ll eventually get put with people who also don’t know maps, or are so bad in something else that it evens out.

It’s not a matter of not being able to compete, it’s a matter of not having the willpower to continue playing after losing a few games or not having a desire to improve.

Same goes with any matchmaking system, including ones that have random maps.

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Of course "build order wins" are a thing in every rating bracket, in fact I would say the impact of a build order is inversely proportional to your rating - that is to say learning a buildorder will have a larger impact on your performance on lower levels of play.

Btw nobody has to create buildorders, it's perfectly possible to improvise better buildorders than your competition's premade ones even at the highest level. You could just as well tell the high level players to "learn to play" as you may do to lower rating players.

It makes total sense that prepping would have a negative impact on many low level games. Like for instance a 1k player who has prepped 50% of the maps in the pool might be crushing half of his games while getting rekt in the other half. Ie. all of their games are unbalanced as the result.

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Thing is what is equated to as a build order at lower levels is the ability to get 3 factories up without stalling. It's the basic shit that can almost be applied universally regardless of map with very slight variations needed. It isn't 1k players that are losing games because they failed to reclaim the rocks on the way to grab the back mexes on open palms. They lose games because they failed to notice that Syrtis Major has a gigantic civ base in middle with 12k mass in it.

The former will still not be deciding games on premade or random maps. The latter will decide games on premade or random maps.

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As ftx said, what counts as a build order to a 1k player is probably very different to what counts as a build order to a 2k player. As you get better at the game, what was previously a "build order" is now just the natural output of playing the game and balancing your eco, so unless you are at a level where you cannot improve your general gameplay (which I don't think is the case for anybody in the game - even Tagada/Nexus), focusing on improving your general gameplay is preferable to worrying about preparing build orders for specific maps.

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Btw the random maps are supported in map pools now. Y’all can put them in if/when ever you please.

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@archsimkat said in About Neroxis map generator...:

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Hey (as per my discord PM)

what's the status update on this?

As @Askaholic said it's ready to go. it's been two weeks. this is kinda painful to have this much of a delay on things that are pretty much done and ready to go.

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Hey @tatsu, thanks for informing me again but as we discussed in PMs, I am already aware that adding mapgen to map pools is supported. Whether you ask me privately or post about it publicly does not change the fact that I will not suddenly change the map pool in the middle of a ladder rotation.

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oh, ok I wasn't made aware that's what it was. thanks!

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@askaholic said in About Neroxis map generator...:

Btw the random maps are supported in map pools now. Y’all can put them in if/when ever you please.

Can you tell me how to enable this? I only see the default maps. Furthermore, is it possible to play only random generated maps in the matchmaking?

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People responsible for map pools need to put it in as a "map" in the rotation that the server can launch.

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@blodir

@blodir said in About Neroxis map generator...:

It's simply astouding. Most of the 1v1 10x10 maps generated with the "tournament" setting are better than most ladder maps. It feels a lot like AoE2. Definitely wouldn't mind seeing generated maps on ladder.

Would it be possible to have some 10% chance of getting a brand new mapgen map on ladder?

Thanks to the work of our amazing devs behind the scenes, Mapgen is now available as a map to be added to ladder. As a result, 1v1 Ladder now includes Mapgen as one of the maps in each of the map sizes: 5x5, 10x10, and 20x20. Get laddering!

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Holy Smokes!

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got a map gen first try!

GLORIOUS!

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Wonderful, now I'll play more ladder.
I hope we'll have the option to queue for a pool/ladder of just map gen in not too long : )

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@archsimkat Thanks so much! can we do 2v2 as well?