Points of Imbalance.
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@Dragun101 said in Points of Imbalance.:
Better players than me can explain but:
Land is Slow. So making deploying a land army in mass takes alot of time or transports
Firebases. Or more specifically A failed T3 Engagement can backfire so painfully
Map Control is Generally establish, so engaging on fronts to take proxies or expansions is harder and might take more mass than you giveAnd likely also efficient usage of BP, creating and deploying the Bricks/T3 Army takes more time/effort/etc to build than just amassing T4 Units or Arty. So even if equal mass of bricks > ML or otherwise. The relative time to make, deploy and otherwise the bricks is harder than the monkey mayhe/IDunno. Shitty 1k global
I'm sure your reasons are valid. Really, I am. Its a complex problem, with many independent factors contributing.
However I'm also sure that a massive 30-50% nerf to those units from 2018 exacerbated the problem immensely.
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The relative strength of those units wouldn't really changed any of the criteria that I mentioned
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@Dragun101 said in Points of Imbalance.:
The relative strength of those units wouldn't really changed any of the criteria that I mentioned
But the relative strength of the units would certainly make them more viable.
A slow unit that takes immense build-power to put out in force might be worth building anyway if its really strong.
We can all at least agree that weakening T3 assault units discourages their use can't we? We can find that much common ground right?
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@Arran said in Points of Imbalance.:
@moses_the_red. Please give the balance team more time and leeway. They are hard working (I hear :P) and very busy. I think there is room for improvement in T3 land especially after such a large change last patch. However, every large change will require small tweaks and this is unsurprising. There is nothing overly OP or UP that I have found so far. The largest discrepancies I've already commented on in the original post. While there is always room for improvement, the smaller the discrepancy, the longer it will take to make changes. The best we can do is politely ask them to consider our points and concerns then hope they take our suggestions on board.
I have no idea who is or isn't balance team. No one's actually labeled here. I'm debating with whoever shows up in the thread.
I assume that FTXCommando has insight into the team that I don't though, so when he explains that its now policy to just ignore the maps that tend to get played the most... well... that is the kind of position deserving of criticism.
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@moses_the_red said in Points of Imbalance.:
when he explains that its now policy to just ignore the maps that tend to get played the most... well... that is the kind of position deserving of criticism.always been policy
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I don't really see how this Funeral Plain's game proves anything? We can see that instead of matching Pepsi in t3 bot spam I decided to invest more of my mass into eco and help Blodir finish his Mega since me getting 5 more percies is less important then finishing a megalith. After the fronts are drawn it's quite hard to push anywhere with only t3 land and thus in this game we could see me putting a lot of my mass into t3 units during early stages of t3 but then slowing down the production since an extra 2 percies won't change anything once you get to 10+ bots and thus it's better to invest into something with more range like Megalith. Even tho bricks win vs Megalith mass for mass an army consisting of Mega + 10 bricks is far superior then an army consisting of only bricks. Another thing is that even tho t3 is efficient mass for mass vs Experimentals it's not that great at pushing in. Same for using a single assault experimentals. In order to have an effective push you need to have a good mix of units. An assault experimental to tank and attack from further away, t3 assault units for dps once you enter close combat, support units like shields, stealth, AA.
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You definitely could have raped with t3 in that game, I really do not understand why you just immediately skipped over the t3+t4 push stage and immediately went nuke. Even before helping Blodir you really only had 1 fac bothering to produce any units.
You had to invest in mega because Blodir went full 0 units and realized he needs to respond to GC + 15 harbs lol. This is because he went typical immediate t2 mexes and didn't even bother getting control of his plateau with a drop where he can quickly consoooooooooom like 7k mass in reclaim + get 4 extra mexes. Just like absolutely no one in this game bothered to contest anybody else, might as well as have been a sandbox.
Also wtf is this shit with mid anus reclaim taking forever to be consumed by either team and even having engies from both teams just communally taking the mass. It's like one of the defining things that determines who gets the eco lead and you guys just seem to share it between one another.
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We share the mass like true gentlemen. Now stop whining and trash talking cause this is still probably one of the better team games that took place that month. Also I disagree with your comment about the possibility for a t3 push, I don't think it would have been a good idea, could maybe take 2 more mexes but it's not worth it probably.
Also most of these 2vs2 games are played as chill games so no wonder we sit back, eco and relax. -
@moses_the_red said in Points of Imbalance.:
If T3 land is really in a good place, why aren't you making it?
Replay: #12924870
Haha! I handpicked this 1 replay where they barely made any t3. Surely there aren't any different replays proving the opposite!
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I didnt read like any of this thread so dunno if this is wildly offtopic but i just wanna say that ever since loya nerf years ago I only think of t3 land as a defensive tool because any attack is super risky (leaving absurd amount of mass reclaim), slow (enemy has time to react and defenders advantage is supermassive) and has very low potential benefit (usually u are just killing t1 or maybe t2 mex when enemy has 90% of eco deep in their base in t3 mex). Like sure sometimes u can find a good play (mostly by dropping) but 90% of the time if u are on the enemy side of the map with t3 ur just donating mass. It may be ironic for me to say this but T3 phase in general is a massive snoozefest. I dont think u should blame players from making it so either, we are simply picking the highest win % strategy in our view. Btw navy is a lot more fun and is in a much better spot on all stages.
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@TheWheelie said in Points of Imbalance.:
@moses_the_red said in Points of Imbalance.:If T3 land is really in a good place, why aren't you making it?
Replay: #12924870Haha! I handpicked this 1 replay where they barely made any t3. Surely there aren't any different replays proving the opposite!
Dude, I looked through Tagada's games, and ignored anything on Setons until I found a game on a land map that went beyond 45 minutes.
That's how I found the replay.
The problem shows itself in pretty much every game, regardless of level on any map where there isn't a massive area to defend. You don't have to look hard. See the cast of ThomasHiatt versus JaggedAppliance I linked above. The problem is in that game too.
I am far too lazy to watch enough games to hand pick one.
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@Blodir said in Points of Imbalance.:
I didnt read like any of this thread so dunno if this is wildly offtopic but i just wanna say that ever since loya nerf years ago I only think of t3 land as a defensive tool because any attack is super risky (leaving absurd amount of mass reclaim), slow (enemy has time to react and defenders advantage is supermassive) and has very low potential benefit (usually u are just killing t1 or maybe t2 mex when enemy has 90% of eco deep in their base in t3 mex). Like sure sometimes u can find a good play (mostly by dropping) but 90% of the time if u are on the enemy side of the map with t3 ur just donating mass. It may be ironic for me to say this but T3 phase in general is a massive snoozefest. I dont think u should blame players from making it so either, we are simply picking the highest win % strategy in our view. Btw navy is a lot more fun and is in a much better spot on all stages.
Thank you for your input. I tend to agree.
There's a reason people don't make a ton of T3 land anymore... and its that its in a bad place.
I think its best fixed with T4 nerfs, but maybe I'm wrong on that. Most important thing is that the problem is identified as a problem and hopefully addressed.
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T4 nerf isn't what Blodir is talking about. Blodir's point goes towards more of a suggestion about adjusting reclaim % as unit tech increases or w/e.
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@FtXCommando said in Points of Imbalance.:
T4 nerf isn't what Blodir is talking about. Blodir's point goes towards more of a suggestion about adjusting reclaim % as unit tech increases or w/e.
That's the same issue with T4 though. You lose no less mass if you send an assault experimental.
And I'm not saying reclaim % shouldn't be adjusted, what I'm saying is that T3 land does not have the utility it once had, and the problem started back at the T3 nerf. I understand the purpose of that in relation to T2, but think either the nerfs were too steep, or that T4 needs a corresponding nerf as well.
As things are, people are putting up 2 T3 factories, 20 T1 factories, and shoving their mass into T4s, nukes and arties. It doesn't have to be that way.
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To add to this discussion, here's an old Zlo game.
People really did used to invest in T3 land production.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPgWUipqAak
EDIT: Nevermind, that video is older than I thought lol.
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The problem Blodir mentioned is as old as time in teamgames.
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@FtXCommando said in Points of Imbalance.:
The problem Blodir mentioned is as old as time in teamgames.
From Blodir:
i just wanna say that ever since loya nerf years ago I only think of t3 land as a defensive tool because any attack is super risky
I mean.... it sounds to me like he's also referencing T3 unit nerfs.
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I took it as the loya nerf where they can’t stun air units anymore since otherwise he coulda said t3 nerf but w/e.
The argument is more than loya (and harb) were the few units that could go in solo and crush everything (in old balance) since they countered all earlier tiers, were quick, and had decent kiting ability. They were also comparably cheap to other t3 units. Other than that specific use in early t3 stage, if you made a large t3 force, the game always came down to who will have the force that crushes the other and wins the reclaim field. Therefore, t3 was always defensive due to defender advantage.
The REASON T4 pushes are seen more often is because it’s easier to justify you having a competitive edge to win the game or win a huge reclaim pile if you just dumped 20-30k mass into some t4 that has a specific advantage in certain situations. It’s the support mixture that allows your t3 buildup, even if less numerous due to the t4, to either force enemy to move into you (and possibly donate mass) or retreat and give space.
This was honestly more extreme in the past because if it got to mass t3 buildup stage and you faces UEF, then you were just fucked anyway and had better started to spam out your faction’s assault bot. Nowadays you can actually maintain a t3 force with t4 support with all factions.
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@FtXCommando said in Points of Imbalance.:
I took it as the loya nerf where they can’t stun air units anymore since otherwise he coulda said t3 nerf but w/e.The argument is more than loya (and harb) were the few units that could go in solo and crush everything (in old balance) since they countered all earlier tiers, were quick, and had decent kiting ability. They were also comparably cheap to other t3 units. Other than that specific use in early t3 stage, if you made a large t3 force, the game always came down to who will have the force that crushes the other and wins the reclaim field. Therefore, t3 was always defensive due to defender advantage.
The REASON T4 pushes are seen more often is because it’s easier to justify you having a competitive edge to win the game or win a huge reclaim pile if you just dumped 20-30k mass into some t4 that has a specific advantage in certain situations. It’s the support mixture that allows your t3 buildup, even if less numerous due to the t4, to either force enemy to move into you (and possibly donate mass) or retreat and give space.That seems like a whole lot of shucking and jiving to avoid admitting that people aren't building T3 as much becasue it recieved a massive recent nerf with no corresponding nerf to competing units or defensive structures.
You're making this more complicated than it is. What is the specific advantage? Its the same for pretty much all assault experimentals other than the Fatboy.
Its a fast, mobile force concentration that gives you a defeat in detail advantage over your opponent.
The speed at which you can build them, along with the fact that its faster than T3 and can't be defeated by T3 without massive expenditures in production makes it super effective.
So effective that people wind up building them and only build a token T3 force. They needed T3 as they transitioned out of T2, so why not keep making them now that the factories are paid for?
The T3 assault unit should be the centerpiece unit at the heart of all land battles. In its current state, its not viable in that role, the massive nerf to T3 assault units two years ago is the reason why. It may not be the only factor holding T3 assault units back, but its certainly a major factor.
Being just good enough to tag along behind T4, or worthwhile as a stepping stone tier between T2 and T4 leaves the game in a lesser state.
But none of that really addresses your post.
You seem to be claiming that T4 is built because it is flexible and fast to build, so that you can quickly exploit a battleground weakness. You scout and see not enough land, so you build a Fatboy. You scout and see little air defense, so you build a Soulripper.
That is certainly true, but T3 land is also flexible.
You scout and find a block of Ravagers, you build T3 mobile arty. You scout and find a T4 starting to build, you go snipers.
There is flexibility in increased T3 production.
But we aren't seeing people take advantage of that flexibility through production increases. We're seeing them ignore that and predictably go Megalith + scattered bricks and T1 arty.
We aren't seeing that not because of T4 is more flexible. It isn't. You go Chicken or asswasher. You go Fatboy or tickle gun. You go ML if you're too broke for a Mega, or you go Soulripper. T4 is pretty damn predictable.
Its just too damn good relative to T3. Even if T3 units do kill some T4 mass for mass, T3 units are vulnerable to splash, so it just doesn't matter if 6k in mobile artillery ensures a win for your chicken or GC.
At the end of the day, people aren't building significant T3 because T3 isn't a good investment choice... its bad.
To fix that, you have to make it better relative to other competing options.
You're happy with where it is in relation to T2, fair enough, that means you can't buff it. I understand.
But that leaves another obvious option for fixing it... Nerf the assault experimentals. Doesn't need to be a massive nerf. You don't need to hit them as hard as you hit T3 assault units (probably), but when they crowd out other units its time for a nerf.
Also consider a nerf to defensive structures.
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So this following suggestion is mostly sarcastic:
Make T3 Support HQ Land Factories Cheap. Like Super Cheap and Fast to build. And better BP. So deploying and setting up a T3 Land Proxy can be done quickly, cheaply and efficient. Perhaps increase of T3 HQ's Land. Half the problem as folks said is travel time/deployment of T3 Units in mass. If you make it 'easier' to setup a late stage T3 Land Proxy Base, so you can bump out units and transition to units there faster it might be easier.The topic of defenders advantage is a failed T3 Push, while bad onto itself, is only made worse with reclaim. So having reclaimed values as you tech up get scaled down/I dunno. But words let me rephrase:
One of problems of land is end game, both travel time to deploy land forces (can be scouted and responded too), and ever increasing mass, a failed push gives an opposing player. The deployment is due how for variety of reasons important buildings like T2+ factories tend to be in someone main base. And then despite engi mod, I noticed (once again shitty 1k global) still tend to hyper assist hyper tech factories with engis vs support factories. And to do that you need the BP, which tends to once again be in your main base.
In addition to this piece of trivia. A T3 Engi building a T3 Support Factory takes almost same time to build as T1 Engi building T1 Land factory which then upgrades itself to T2 Support Factory. (Also a T2 Engi Building T2 Support directly is slower than building T1 Factory then upgrading T2 Support. And T1 Engi building a T1 Land which upgrades to T2 Support takes same time as building T2 Support directly as T2 Engi).
Words this shitty 1k global thinks, maybe it worth considering looking at relationship to support factories and HQ's again. If part of the problem is deployment of T3 Units (if current status of T3 mostly as defensive tool is not desired) to battlefield. Is looking at removing the deployment aspect of T3 in some shape or form. Making T3 Support Factories cheaper to build, deploy and utilize in mass. Another aspect of this while raw cost is important too obivously the drain of unassisted support factories. Reducing there raw BP by half. As that make their eco per second comparable (when unassisted) comparable to T2 Land factories.
This would make it easier to deploy T3 Units using support factories and makes going from a T2 Factory to T3 Factory not result in a significant increase of economic drain. A similar type of relationship could be done for T2 Support factories and T2 HQ factories with build power, mass and energy cost reductions. Or atleast make T2 Support build straight from T2 Engies faster than T1 Factories built by T1 engi upgrading to T2 unsupported.
Also if curious its faster to build a T2 Factory with a T3 Engi then support it to a T3 support vs building a straight T3 Support when built by T3 Engi. (Upgrade Commanders building support factories are faster than lower tech + upgrading). Words.
Basically; maybe adjusting cost and build power of support factories?
