Premade Teams in the upcoming TMM 4 v 4 Queue

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i doubt being premade gives that much of an advantage; e.g. if you have a team of nexus and tagada, they already have allmost 5k rating combined (going from current global) if their opponents are just 4 random 1500's that leaves their team 1k rating for 2 players.
I hardly immagine it will be trivial wins for them if their 500s still have full T2 mex and T2 land on a 20x20 navy map, while everyone else is full T3 eco.
I also dont believe in premades introducing huge benefits from communacating, at least as long as there is no actually competetive teamgame scene. at least I cant remember a single case of an op premade team cruhing 2v2 due to their epic teamplay, only thing that 2 premades matched vs me and a 0 rated/500 rated random guy, due to how matchmaking worked.
what is wy more important would be how matchmaking is implemented to reduce the probability of huge rating gaps and other possible issues which just cause frustration.
This discussion only makes senese if actual 3/4 man teams for in tmm and those actually tryhard it, which I very much doubt that it is gonna happen.

Forumpros doing balance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SJhLlucMXE .
When a canis player remembers to build more than 3 units https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hjp8xJHuyA .

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Let me tell you a little story.

It goes like this: I joined a Dual Gap lobby (gotta love this map, and I am serious too), the game started, all is good and fine until...
Enemy has launched a rushed nuke at our eco, second later game gets paused by the enemy to emphasize the time at which the nuke was launched, game unpaused, eco's base obliterated. Our team super behind, +need to build those SMD's on bot. Next fast nuke fired, game again(!) gets paused for a moment, nuke hits our navy and destroys it. The enemy proceeds with his fleet with no opposition through the water to our side. They reclaimed the nuke and started a Mavor. I think at this point there is no need to continue the story.

In the end it turned out that the enemy team had three premade players (one of them the host) stationed at the bot (eco, bot air, navy). The host, who was pausing and unpausing the game, had "king" in his nickname, which explains a lot. King in a premade team pwns random noobs - REAL NICE.

So, do you really want to potentially expose unsuspecting average players to this kind of gameplay experience?

And this will happen! Why? Because rating is involved!

Let them premade friends battle against those king team players, but keep the average Joes away from such an experience.

Some one might think: well, you got unlucky, happens... Happens? Go to #aeolus and write "lord" or "king" in the user search, how often will it happen? Regardless, decent players must be kept away from someone's toxic pursuit of rating and the false feeling of achievement.

THIS

Strategic Noob Defense

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Your issue sounds 90% like a dual gap issue and id assume less like to happen on proper maps (also 4v4 not 6v6) where you cannot just afkmex the entire game to then randomly dump 3 slots eco into a nuke.
Especially a decent map variety should prevent sth like this, since not every map will meet the conditions for sth like a nukerush with 2-3 slots economies, automatically reducing the efficiency of this kind of farming since it wouldnt work in X% (maybe 75%?) of the cases to begin with. On top of that, even if these guy get the map they like, they still dont have a guarantee that the right player is on the right slot, immagine the nukerusher is frontslot and has to spam units, ecoslot a random guy, 2nd safe slot the worst player of the 3 guys, cant easily pull of the nukerush that case either.
so y I only will believe it happening in tmm untill I see it - and its obvious the issue cannot be fixed decently easily with an adjusted matchmaking algorithm or an adjusted mappool.

Also why is this in balance discussion? It belongs in general discussion.

Forumpros doing balance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SJhLlucMXE .
When a canis player remembers to build more than 3 units https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hjp8xJHuyA .

1

LOL

Coordinated team work of a clan will beat the coordinated team work of random players, regardless of the map.

How can't you understand it?

It goes something like this: the required minimum of resources is allocated towards stand-of tactics until a game changer is built hastily by all of the premade team players (even early Monkeylord can make all the difference).

Different ways of working on something together: providing resources, providing build power, providing air cover, providing shields, add your example here.

Random players just don't have that level of interplay and coordination between them, that is what makes it UNBALANCED.

Strategic Noob Defense

1

The issue gets resolved via ratings. You’re assuming a premade team are fighting random players of equal skill, but if they were of equal skill the premade team would win more and be higher rank, and so end up fighting random people of greater skill on average.

M27AI developer; Devlog and more general AI development guide:
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/2373/ai-development-guide-and-m27ai-v12-devlog

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@maudlin27 said in Premade Teams in the upcoming TMM 4 v 4 Queue:

The issue gets resolved via ratings. You’re assuming a premade team are fighting random players of equal skill, but if they were of equal skill the premade team would win more and be higher rank, and so end up fighting random people of greater skill on average.

Ratin, rating, rating...

Basically, you are writing: from time to time you will play an unwinnable game.
Why I must play an unwinnable game?

Random players can't hide behind their friends.

Strategic Noob Defense

5

Because the entire point of skill-based matchmaking is to ensure that everyone has a 50% win rate. If you win rating goes up and you get harder opponents, if you lose rating goes down and you get easier opponents, until you are at a 50% win rate.

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you still failed to prove it will actually exist. so to prove that dual gap gameplay one to one carries over to 4v4 teamgames. I rarely see the thing you describe in generic 4v4-7v7s and not at all in 2v2 which would be the best comparison, since its an actual matchmaker environment (compared to custom games with manual balance). as long as you cant provide anything but 2gap (the environment where rating is fucked the hardest except maybe astro) your points are invalid

Forumpros doing balance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SJhLlucMXE .
When a canis player remembers to build more than 3 units https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hjp8xJHuyA .

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@thomashiatt said in Premade Teams in the upcoming TMM 4 v 4 Queue:

Because the entire point of skill-based matchmaking is to ensure that everyone has a 50% win rate. If you win rating goes up and you get harder opponents, if you lose rating goes down and you get easier opponents, until you are at a 50% win rate.

I get the concept, but it does not explain playing an unwinnable stacked game.

And again: random players can't hide behind their friends.

Strategic Noob Defense

5

First of all, this shouldn't be in this sub-forum, second of all the issue you are describing is very unlikely to exist because: There would actually need to be premade teams of people try-harding - right now this doesn't exist, maybe it will but I doubt that.
Another reason why this shouldn't be a problem is that if they do play better just because they are premade then they will get more rating and eventually it will balance out.
For now, I am locking this. If a mod wants to then this can be moved to General and unlocked but I don't really see a reason for this tbh.