A Big Discussion on Balance. Part 1
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@Nuggets Thanks for the feedback! I hope to see how these players make effective use of Paragon following these changes.
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@ETFreeman Thanks for the feedback!
- Increasing Othuum’s speed will weaken Harbinger, as they are losing to them in head-to-head combat.
- I don't understand why increasing the cost of stealth would weaken cybran. Their units can effectively fight without stealth. This is an interesting feature of the faction, but it should not give such an advantage. And you can still use it.
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@Nuggets I hope to see how these players make effective use of Paragon following these changes.
Will be hard to say, because usually they are not built often because of how OP they are. You could have 2 months of testing and might not even see one.
I honestly cant even believe there is so much backlash to this. Its well known that the para is the most OP unit in the game. You need 0 map control or anything and you will have insane resource income to contest everything and win automatically unless its sniped.
What I read from your github comment is that you would want a 20% nerf instead. So essentially nerf that will make no difference as its not uncommon to not spend the entire resources a para can produce. -
@Nuggets I really liked Drimer’s idea (GodFuper on GitHub). “Let the same 4k mass and 500k energy be released, but immediately.”
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@Nuggets I really liked Drimer’s idea (GodFuper on GitHub). “Let the same 4k mass and 500k energy be released, but immediately.”
I dont think the idea is that bad, but imagine you are the player who gets overflow and think "nice now i have tons or ressources, lets go spend!" You proceed to massively scale everything and then suddenly you no longer get ANY overflow because the paragon player is using it all and you are kinda cooked.
Essentially what I am saying is that its too inconsistent to calculate how much you can and should use
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@Nuggets Yes, it will require good teamwork. But Paragon has always needed that to be effective. You can ask a player with a Paragon to hand over their economy to you, or gime him your eng
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@Nuggets Yes, it will require good teamwork. But Paragon has always needed that to be effective. You can ask a player with a Paragon to hand over their economy to you, or gime him your eng
Yes, but its a one time thing. You give over your stuff and you're done. To calculate overflow is WAY harder and needs to be constantly watched. And thats if we are talking about a 2-player scenario. It gets infinitely more complex if there are more player on the team
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@Nuggets Yes, but in any case, I think this is a more interesting change than simply nerfing Paragon by 60%. It’ll be interesting to see what other players have to say about it.
What do you think of the other suggestions?
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I like the mercy change. The mercy is now, imo, a very fun unit, but the biggest problem is that it has a VERY small window of opportunity. Your suggestion will improve that. Also currently mercies cannot be made in aircraft carriers or land on air staging, which should be changed (this was a balance thing when the mercy was a snipe unit, i have brought it up multiple times but as I am no github user not sure if it will ever change!)
The spearheards are ok, but have to much health imo. They are "kinda" the UEF version of a sniper bot, but its almost impossible to snipe them because of their high health.
Cant really comment on the others but I dont think czar is as bad as many people make it out to be. Sure, Ahwassa is way better against bases and armies, but thats because the main use case of the czar is also slowly farming enemy air and being great in an air engagement to win air with its beam.
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@Nuggets
I hadn’t even realised that Mercy cannot be made in aircraft carriers or land on air staging. I agree it would be great to fix thatYour suggestion about spearheads sounds interesting. In any case, we both agree that they need to be little nerf.
I thought the possibility of an air victory using the Czar beam had been fixed when they changed the ASF’s flight height. Or am I getting something wrong? Given the current cost of CZAR, it’s always easier to build Restorers, which are also effective against ASF.
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Czar is probably the best balanced air t4 in the game, it’s not costing an arm and a leg to build like a washer where there is huge volatility in outcome but it still serves a very good purpose in air screening and focusing single targets, it’s literally just a big resto.
Absolver is an insanely good unit and it’s crazy that Aeon has it in its roster, I cannot think of many units needing a buff less.
Titan is fine, problem is loya being overtuned against t2.
Spearhead singlehandely carries UEF t3 stage and the only thing tolerable would be like a 500 hp nerf to it. Everything else about it needs to exist while percy stays completely mid.
Novax fix is changing it to shoot like percy (funny how that makes it worse) with high alpha and no aoe so it can’t snipe engies, killing random things on enemy map side isn’t the big problem with novax.
Othuum/Mercy - No strong opinion, they need something just don’t have my own take on how to fix it.
Mermaid - Get rid of torp def and increase cost of mermaid, then it’s fine.
Air Stealth - Not a problem, Cyb ASF lose equal number battles against the other ASFs due to the terrible projectile, stealth is the only thing not making them a bottom tier faction.
If anything every faction (except Aeon) should have stealth asf because it actually reinforces playing air competently and rewards proper unit placement and screening. Aeon doesn’t need it because these purposes are done by resto and it would be a reason to not always pick Aeon every-time in an air slot.
Paragon - 10k mass paragon is the most broken unit in the game, I don’t even understand how anyone can make a cogent argument based in the math of the game to argue against it. Both you and Robogear’s arguments in that github thread are not good and involve random stretches of assumption of things being impossible to counter and fundamental misunderstandings of how game ender scenarios play/what matters in them.
The only argument about countering paragon is yolo because of the reality of SMD buildtime and yolo being 190k, which is more a situation of how op nukes are in general and why we need to review SMD vs SML/yolo balance so that nukes can’t swing to immediately ending a game because an air grid didn’t scout an sml until it was up for a minute.
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Thanks for the feedback!
I agree that CZAR plays the role of a large Resto, but in that case, give CZAR the same speed as a Resto. CZAR costs almost as much as a Washer. You could build 40 Restos for the price of a CZAR, and that would be a much better investment.
Do you often see Absolver being used in-game? In all my years playing the game, I can’t remember seeing it used effectively even few games.
Titan is fine? Why did you come to that conclusion? He’s worse than Loya in absolutely every parametr and can’t fight other T3 units at all.
That change to Novax you mentioned sounds interesting. I’d like to try playing that way
Mermaid - we were in agreement.
As for the ASF stealth. It doesn’t put Cyb on an equal level with other factions, rather, it gives them an advantage. I’m not suggesting we remove it from the game, just that we make it more expensive. If changing it from 30 to 60 is too harsh, we could make it 30 to 50, or at least 30 to 45.
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Absolver is absolutely goated, I always make it when I need it as aeon. It's just a skill issue that people don't know how to use it. It absolutely melts all shields including personal ones. Othuum indeed sucks ass in the current balance, it's slower than a harb and additionally they always bump into each other when turning. Giving an othuum same range on both guns would also be a nice idea, i.e. 25 range. That would be great for ythotha as well to fight megas.
And an overall sniper buff would be nice, at least making them cost cheaper. They're one of the most APM draining unit in 1v1s that you HAVE to build and cannot lose, because all of your damage is gone
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@FtXCommando As for the Paragon. Both you and Nomander arguments in that github thread are not good and involve only ideal playing conditions for paragon and fundamental misunderstandings of how game ender scenarios play/what matters in them. (I have to answer you in your style.)
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Stealthed asf doesn’t give Cyb an advantage against anybody except incompetent players. By default you should be screening your ASF with spy planes for intel, Cybran just has the ability to cause that to harm you with an even worse first engagement than the other factions.
I have never picked Cybran for air since the strat bomber adjustment, they’re equivalent to UEF for me and Aeon is just obviously the superior faction.
Game balance is not about a unit being seen in 15% of games. Absolver carries insane utility against elements like shielded acus as well as breaking firebases alongside winning sniper vs sniper engagements while also being insanely powerful in the aeon vs aeon mirror. There is no need for the unit to need an increase in utility.
Yes, titan is fine. Titan trades pretty fairly with ilshies which should be the expectation for t3 raid bots. The problem with loyas is that they totally slaughter units like ilshies and obsidians when they shouldn’t. I don’t actually have much of a problem with titan vs loya balance and think titans trade well if you micro them properly to take advantage of the shield recharge. You aren’t supposed to just sandbox and charge them into one another and conclude loyalists are OP, that’s not how titans are supposed to fight them.
Nomander’s arguments in the github thread actually involve numerics about the game not just throwing out “you need like a million engies to deal with a mavor and uh then a 2nd mavor is up before u finish ur paragon” or talking about shielding/supporting shielding of ur air grid against a mavor because killing it means you can now strat the para. This isn’t how game ender scenarios play. Neither you nor Robo seem to realize how easy it is to spend 10k mass and how quickly 10k mass a second becomes insurmountable in a game where having 15% more mass invested in anything that your opponent is doing means you win regardless of micro/positioning.
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Stealthed asf doesn’t give Cyb an advantage against anybody except incompetent players. By default you should be screening your ASF with spy planes for intel, Cybran just has the ability to cause that to harm you with an even worse first engagement than the other factions.
Thats just wrong. It happens to everyone that you suddenly get jumped because you forgot enemy is cybran. Yes, you should be screening with scouts, but scouts can also be shot down, you dont pay attention for 2 seconds and its over.
Now I'm not saying cybran is worse or better, as I'm not sure myself, but I just disagree with that stealth doesnt give an advantage. -
@VindexNoob Thanks for the feedback!
If the majority believe that Absolver is a well-balanced unit that doesn’t need rebalancing, then that’s fine.
I like your suggestion to make the firing range the same for both guns for Othuum and Ythotha’s.
As for sniper bots, I’m not sure it’s worth making them cheaper. They really do require a lot of micro, and you simply can’t do without it when playing as Sera or Aeon. Perhaps they need to increase the range to 70, or at least reduce the build time. But I’d like to hear other people’s views.
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Stealthed asf doesn’t give Cyb an advantage against anybody except incompetent players. By default you should be screening your ASF with spy planes for intel, Cybran just has the ability to cause that to harm you with an even worse first engagement than the other factions.
Thats just wrong. It happens to everyone that you suddenly get jumped because you forgot enemy is cybran. Yes, you should be screening with scouts, but scouts can also be shot down, you dont pay attention for 2 seconds and its over.
Now I'm not saying cybran or worse or better, as I'm not sure myself, but I just disagree with that stealth doesnt give an advantage.If your spy planes got shot down then stop being aggressive and pull back, if you didn’t then you should be confident in having around 33-50% more ASF than the opponent so the bad turn potential won’t cause a loss.
I have never forgotten my opponent’s faction, this is literally one of the first things I scout and remember in a game.
These are just bad air plays which should only be happening in scenarios where air needs to make bad plays because the game is in a really bad spot. If you’re doing this in non “do or die” scenarios you’re just a bad air user/player.
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@FtXCommando Yes thats what you should do in theory but in practice its rarely that simple. While I agree that its a blunder / bad when you get jumped by the asf, it still happens to everyone excluding you apparently. Also just because you know what the optimal move against stealth is, doesnt change the fact that stealth gives cybran an advantage, even if its only lowering the enemies attack opportunities, and thats only in a straight ASF vs ASF fight. You can also use stealth to go around and snipe your resto / strat / torp or whatever
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Yeah, you can abuse enemy laziness with cyb stealth. I personally do not have any problem with cyb asf, yes. Like I said I never pick cyb in a tournament for air because I don’t value stealth asf much, it’s really not a big deal when you play properly. It’s more of a problem when you’re doing a 1v1 or a 2v2 and have a litany of things to manage and cannot spend the time properly screening air. But that’s also a problem for all factions until omni is up in 1v1 and 2v2 and unattended air fights happen in these game modes often in general.
I strictly see cyb stealth as reinforcing really interesting gameplay in t3 air stage and have no desire to make it less pervasive. Like I said it’s way better for almost every faction to have stealth asf instead but if that’s not gonna happen then they should just stay where they are.
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