Points of Imbalance.
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@advena said in Points of Imbalance.:
@moses_the_red
I've seen your replay. You'll newer be able to micro ML like this outside of vacuum.
Even in your replay you loose if ML start retreating from not ideal vectorBut there is simple solution I like (but can't estimate full effect it will have on balance):
Buff brick speed by 0.2Its not just the brick, its all T3 units, check the patch notes for that patch.
Everything was hit.
Percival, Otthum, Loyalist, Harbinger and Titan.
The problem isn't that the Brick is underpowered. All T3 land is underpowered relative to T4 assault experimentals.
We nerfed all these T3 units without bothering to hit assault experimentals with corresponding combat effectiveness nerfs.
I've been talking bout Bricks and Monkeylords, because those are the units I'm most familiar with. I can make a case with those specific units rather clearly... but the problem isn't with just those units.
Also, speed is probably not the stat you want to buff or nerf, because whether it actually matters or not is hard to quantify.
If you buff the speed of a unit, but its still slower than a kiting unit, you really haven't changed the balance between the two.
Speed changes mostly matter at inflection points, points where you have enough speed to do something you couldn't do previously. They do strange non-linear things to balance. Range changes have the same issue.
I'd stick to just health and damage changes if I were the balance team. Those are easy to quantify.
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@moses_the_red
If brick speed was 2.5 you would have lost ML in 100% battles of your replay.Brick is only T3 direct fire unit ML can kite. Percies rape it and others direct fire units are faster
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@advena said in Points of Imbalance.:
@moses_the_red
If brick speed was 2.5 you would have lost ML in 100% battles of your replay.Brick is only T3 direct fire unit ML can kite. Percies rape it and others direct fire units are faster
You're ignoring the fact that the patch affected not just the Brick's balance aganist a ML, but the bricks balance against the GC, Chicken Megalith and Fatboy as well.
It is significantly weaker than it was against all assault experimentals.
If you try to correct this by focusing on Monkeylords and Bricks, you're going to leave a lot of things broken.
Is the Brick speed change also going to reverse the relative balance change between the brick and the Megalith? No right?
And since its a speed buff, you might get unintended consequences. As I said, speed changes aren't going to be linear. Bricks might inadvertently become OP against something else.
If you want predictable balance changes, you stick with health and damage.
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Brick does decent against all other T4s. The problem is the vet HP ML gains due to it being the most efficient dps/mass T4.
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Experimentals beeing very strong is part of this game
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@FtXCommando said in Points of Imbalance.:
Brick does decent against all other T4s. The problem is the vet HP ML gains due to it being the most efficient dps giving T4.
By what metric?
The old balance patch cut its combat effectiveness by something like 1/3. How many bricks to kill a GC?
The point of all this was never to say that brick-monkeylord balance is off. Its to say that when you change a class of units (T3 asasult units) and don't change a competeting class (assault experimentals) you wind up with OP assault experimentals.
None of this will matter if Cybran players just stop building Monkeylords and build Megaliths instead - or switch to Aeon and build GCs.
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@herzer99 said in Points of Imbalance.:
Experimentals beeing very strong is part of this game
It is NOW, it was changed.
Perhaps you weren't around before the 2018 patch, but Experimentals - as a class - were generally not mass efficient against T3 assault units.
There were exceptions like the fatboy, but the fatboy has other serious issues (speed, low health) that mitigate the issue.
And to be clear, I'm not advocating that the T3 balance patch be reverted. I'm advocating that it be extended to all the units it should have affected.
You can't just massive change T3 assault units and not change other competing units and declare that all is fine.
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By the metric of mass efficiency. ML is the only one where you arguably can lose with equal mass investment. Even this could be argued is a good thing because ML holds the title as the easiest T4 to counter with more out of the box tactics.
Like it's basically the only T4 that can reliably be killed by rambo ACUs, it easily gets murked by any loss in air advantage. Point of it's efficiency in crushing swarms of T3 is that it auto dies to any other form of response.
Not that this issue really exists outside of the brick v ML issue because percy murks ML due to alpha + higher range + shields. Snipers also crush ML pretty bad given vision.
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I have indeed just now startet playing this game
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@FtXCommando said in Points of Imbalance.:
By the metric of mass efficiency. ML is the only one where you arguably can lose with equal mass investment. Even this could be argued is a good thing because ML holds the title as the easiest T4 to counter with more out of the box tactics.
Like it's basically the only T4 that can reliably be killed by rambo ACUs, it easily gets murked by any loss in air advantage. Point of it's efficiency in crushing swarms of T3 is that it auto dies to any other form of response.
I thought we were all on the same page here. I've been speaking of Bricks and Monkeylords with the expectation that everyone understands that they are just representatives from the classes of units that were thrown out of line. Representatives that are easy to test.
Patch 3696 changed an entire class of units, and did not touch another competing class of units.
Clearly the issue extends beyond the Brick and Monkeylord, or do you think that the balance team just happened to fix T3-T4 balance when it fixed T2-T3 balance by not doing a damn thing - like some kind of miracle everything just worked out perfectly.
Cut all these units effectiveness by 1/3, and lo and behold, that's exactly how off T3/T4 balance was right?
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The old game balance was not good. I have no idea why you framed this as though we should be striving to match the garbage late game balance of 2017.
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Also the game is balanced for 1v1 games.
Not some weird chokepoint teammaps -
@FtXCommando said in Points of Imbalance.:
The old game balance was not good. I have no idea why you framed this as though we should be striving to match the garbage late game balance of 2017.
Maybe I'm wasting my time here and should just hope that the SCU patch is enough to correct all this. We blindly stumbled into the problem we now have and will perhaps blindly stumble out of it.
The reason the pre-2018 balance between T3 and T4 should be respected is because it didn't result from just nerfing one class of units and carelessly disregarding how that affects its balance with another competing class. Someone put thought into it, and tried to keep assault experimentals from replacing T3 land formations.
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@herzer99 said in Points of Imbalance.:
Not some weird chokepoint teammaps
Interesting way to describe the maps people actually play.
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:DD I am also the people
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I am 100-99
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I am 1 people
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actually the most surprising notion here to me is that T3 land formations existed in pre 18 balance in teamgames. the usual thing that happened there was getting full T3 mex into exp only because they wouold build so incredibly quickly. (and there are pds + acus everywhere so what do you even want to do with those T3 units?)
for 1v1s this whole thing is a non issue -
T3 land formations existed if u played UEF. Everything else was T4 spam as a response to the UEF player.
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still unrelated to the monkey vs brick issue :Kappa:
