Moses’ tips for team map design

@FemtoZetta

This post is about getting more support for the kinds of maps you are playing. Warzone, Dual Gap... maps in the style of popular team maps.

Take a look at the current M&M Team Picks. The style of map showcased there is not the style of map that you are actually playing in team games. The types of maps that you're actually playing in team games likely wouldn't make it into that section, they would be blackballed. Aside from one Dual Gap remaster, I didn't see a lot that looked like the kind of team maps that get played.

I'm trying to help guys like you by ensuring that the types of maps that you actually play might get a shot at being supported by the community.

But by all means, come in and throw stones. Perhaps you just want to continue playing Dual Gap and Warzone until the end of time. I have nothing against that, but I'd like to see a greater variety of team maps entering circulation myself - and whatever impediments have been set up to prevent that should be removed - meaning moving towards an objective maps showcase.

NOTE: The maps in the M&M team picks page are gorgeous and well thought out maps. My intention here isn't to disparage anyone's maps, its just to give the kind of maps that people tend to pick in team games an even playing field. If your map is on that page, congratulations, it means you have a gorgeous and interesting map. I just think its maybe not well targeted at the peculiarities of the pickup team game scene - which doesn't mean it isn't a fantastic map.

I think the majority of the community are more casual players, rather than competitive players. Including me . Take for example the original GPG maps: they do not meet your definitions of what a map can be either but that is how the makers intended maps to both play and look like.

With that said: the majority of maps in the featured section are aimed at competitive players. Including my maps, I make my maps for the competitive scene because there is nothing better than seeing high-ladder players beat each other to dust through various angles, smaller and larger skirmishes and more advanced tactics. And then imagine it is on your map !

I don't think calling the list artificial is fair in that aspect. There are maps that are more interesting to play for players with higher rating. And that is what we want to feature as a community - take for example the tournament at the end of the year. The maps played there are generally more competitive maps too. If you'd want to prepare for that tourney then you have better chances with the featured maps than maps like Gap as your training grounds. Without judging on either side.

just have maps that reward thinking and interacting i dont understand why this is so hard to comprehend

I'm only playing Dual Gap because the people I play with basically only play this map... I'd prefer maps that aren't so boring but it's still better than having to play alone. Also Dual Gap at least fills fast. I play Wartime for the same reason, but I think it can be quite fun sometimes, at least there's actual action on it most of the time.
The M&M picks look a lot more interesting in general, gameplay wise, not just regarding visuals. Too bad my mates prefer boring maps.

@FtXCommando said in Moses’ tips for team map design:

just have maps that reward thinking and interacting i dont understand why this is so hard to comprehend

What about maps where a com dies at the 12 minute mark?

Again, team maps that are popular are popular for a reason.

@FemtoZetta You should play them, introduce them to your friends. Maybe you'll have some great games...

But I envision a lot of early com deaths and lopsided play.

lmao

another 300 words all essentially saying "my map is good because it is played" and still unable to realise the moral quandry
intentionally ignoring comments about map quality is also pretty funny, "buddy"

rerouting your call to the cringe department so their customer service team can handle your request, please stay on the line

@moses_the_red said in Moses’ tips for team map design:

So here's the deal I'll make with you.

you are not in any position to bargain

I feel ignored in this discussion

@Jip said in Moses’ tips for team map design:

I feel ignored in this discussion

Sorry, here we go.

Your post essentially missed the purpose of the team picks page, at least in my opinion.

Ladder players have new interesting ladder maps shown off to them all the time... through the ladder pool. There is a continuous cycle of interesting maps pushed through that pool, that ensures that ladder players get to see new ladder maps.

There is a lot of diversity in the ladder map scene.

I don't think we also need a page intended to display more ladder maps in case one of those ladder players decides to host a custom game using a ladder-style map and needs to pick out a map that he or she doesn't already know through his/her experiences in the ladder pool.

It doesn't make sense to exclude team games from such a page.

And I simply don't trust the guys running the show to put team maps people actually want to play on display. They've made their thoughts about team maps clear - they should look like ladder maps. turtley maps, maps that emphasize early game com safety, maps that don't include lots of expansions but instead emphasize base cracking - those maps aren't going on display. They won't be promoted.

And those ARE the maps that work best in team games, whatever delusions people might hold. Its why those are the types of maps that are generally played in the team game scene.

This discussion went from "Here's how to make a map that might fly in the team game scene" to "Why aren't map makers willing to attempt to make maps catering to the team game scene" to "Why are we intentionally keeping maps that might appeal to the team game scene from ever being promoted through FAF's map promotion mechanics".

Very much a broken community. The deeper you dig into this the more it becomes clear that the situation we have is at least partly created by the community. There is no incentive to make team maps, and no willingness to address that either - outside of team match maker (that had better have really short wait times... or its going to outright fail as a feature given the views expressed by the people in charge of it). Any map that seriously attempts to cater to the team game scene will be defined as a shit map for having done so, and filtered out by a team of biased little FAF chiefs that believe it is their job to protect the community from the map types that the community enjoys.

Try to fix it, and you get the guy in charge of maps telling you "You're in no position to bargain".

That's where we are.

Really enjoy this narrative of some top-down dictatorship as though these conclusions weren’t reached through collaboration amongst top players and top mappers.

The REAL story is that FtX got his Council seat and got mad at gap one day and decided it was no good and so he created false reasons why it’s bad. This is even though FtX has played like 700 gap games. Everyone else in the mapping and curation community on FAF is chaffing under his totalitarian reign. They are simply yearning for the hero of the masses that will break their chains and set then free!

Unfortunately if you have a problem with me, you’re also going to have a problem with the mapping community I work with to help improve both FAF and new mappers. Better collect your late night burger gap dudes or whatever your legion of unheard players are and start changing the culture of the supportive structures of FAF. Otherwise you’ll just keep chaffing in those cuffs you imagined for yourself.

Nothing is going to change about how these things are decided or looked at, really. I don’t think a single dude in this segment of the community has had their mind changed by anything you wrote here. If you want to cry about the injustice of this stuff feel free, I don’t really plan on responding in this thread anymore because it’s just become one gigantic joke.

@FtXCommando said in Moses’ tips for team map design:

Really enjoy this narrative of some top-down dictatorship as though these conclusions weren’t reached through collaboration amongst top players and top mappers.

How many of them are regulars out there playing custom games?

Well, I disagree: I still think that I am pretty spot on with the casual vs competitive maps. And with regard to the featured list: there is a gap map in there. And given that all other gap maps are only variations on that one version from one perspective to another, it is sufficient to just have one in there in my opinion.

And don't forget that making high-quality team maps is quite difficult. I just made the map Adaptive Archsimkats Valley in collaboration with a high-ranked ladder player + feedback from the majority of the people in this thread and that map is a 2v2. Let alone a 3v3 or 4v4 which is up next .To make it fun to play (which is still to be seen, but so far everyone I played it with enjoyed it a lot) is actually quite hard because you want it to remain interesting and yes - in my opinion - allow for early mistakes to have consequences because that is how the competitive scene works.

And in response to @FtXCommando: I think what I learned from this topic is that not all players are alike. And that you can hone your map to a specific audience. And that by doing so, your map may be played more or less depending on the availability of that audience .

@moses_the_red said in Moses’ tips for team map design:

Very much a broken community. The deeper you dig into this the more it becomes clear that the situation we have is at least partly created by the community.

Really hate how it's everyone's fault but your own. First me, now FtX who never had anything to do with anything here, and now it's a buzzword. You're the "Hero" and you're now fighting the community at large to fix a problem.

Keep in mind that you'll never be able to, and keep avoiding to answer:

• Why your map is a clone of gap
• Why your map looks like literal garbage
• Why you keep talking about the Top Picks list that is about to be changed
• Why you hosted rohai 600 times and think playcount is relevant
• Why you now think your ideas are law and people are delusional for disagreeing, despite noone agreeing with your posts and even going so far as to asking for it to be moderated as it was deemed harmful.

I have a legitimate group of mappers and players I need to work for here, and they're the people actively disagreeing with everything that you say. I'm not going to stop fostering a community so I can support one guy's delusional map ideas he thought up, for a map he couldn't be bothered to make actually good.

As FtX said, this thread is one big joke. Nothing will change from continually ranting like you're the star of a John Pilger documentary, seek a therapist. I'm not going to bother entertaining this thread anymore.

cant you just close it like on the last forums?