Adjust Recall

Jip

How is a game always no longer competitive when half your opponents team decides to leave?

Allow me to rephrase: it is not the competitive scenario that everyone in the lobby signed up for

What is the objection to having 3v3 recall subject to a basic eco check to avoid a vote being successful when the team is in a potenitally winnable position and only 2/3 players vote for it?

The objection is the complexity and randomness that we introduce with such (arbitrary) rules. And they are arbitrary because the economic situation doesn't quite describe the game state. The game is complicated enough as it is

maudlin27

@jip Re it not being the competitive scenario that everyone in the lobby signed up for, actually it is - that is afterall the whole point of full share, that if someone on a team dies, the other teammate(s) inherit their stuff so the game can continue.

I also dont understand how an eco test to 2 players forcing 1 player to concede would add randomness - it would be based on actual amounts not randomness. Thinking further the only arguably random element I could see could be temporary power stalls or sudden reclaim distoring the figures, but that could easily be resolved in the code.

In which case that just leaves the argument that having say a 75% mass threshold for a 2/3 player recall to be successful is too much complexity to be justified. While it is an increase in complexity, it seems a fairly simple to explain complexity, and it has a massive impact at reducing unjust recall votes - this thread demonstrates how there is a significant amount of people who are unhappy with the current implementation, so there would be a clear benefit from such complexity. Given the complexity of the actual game (just take the overcharge mechanic as an example!), it also doesn't seem like it would be too complex a mechanic for people to understand if the UI could reflect it. However this part I dont know about - i.e. while I think it should be straightforward to code an eco test, I dont know if it would be straightforward to have the recall vote display text that varies based on the teamsize; e.g. in a 3v3 it would have explanatory text "This requires everyone on your team to vote to recall, or just one other player if your team has less than 75% of the enemy team mass income", e.g. on hovering over or as part of the UI menu.

Jip

@maudlin27 said in Adjust Recall:

@jip Re it not being the competitive scenario that everyone in the lobby signed up for, actually it is - that is afterall the whole point of full share, that if someone on a team dies, the other teammate(s) inherit their stuff so the game can continue.

I think we can both agree there's a difference in sentiment and accomplishment between a voluntary and an involuntary share of units. The former usually feels lame to me, because you didn't feel in control. The latter usually feels like my team did something, even if it was a pretty poor choice to give Tagada a second base

@maudlin27 said in Adjust Recall:

75%

This number is random. And requiring one additional vote because of it is random too. It would also convey information that you would otherwise not be able to decipher easily

I don't fully get why people want to force players to continue with low morale. The recall feature was implemented with the intention to allow players to end the game gracefully, in a manner that feels like an accomplishment to the other team. It feels great to me when my opponents recall - it means we managed to not just take out their units, but also their morale. And they acknowledge that by recalling

With that said, I won't dive into the topic further. If enough people want recall to be different then I'm fine with that. But reading this topic it seems to me that even though there are people that want it to be different there are just as many people that want it to be what it is now

Ctrl-K

Please remove recall from TMM games and leave it as option for custom lobbies. Thanks.

Jip

There have been people approaching me about this topic since it got more attention again , long live the lobby. The 3v3 matchmaker did not exist at the time that we implemented recall. Given that it is (still) quite popular it doesn't have one of the problems that recall was designed to overcome: being unable to find the next game without ending the current one.

At the moment it requires all votes of the team if there are two or less (alive) players remaining. What if we push that to three or less (alive) players remaining? That way you need all team members to agree with recalling in the 3v3 matchmaker.

This change would practically only affect the 3v3 matchmaker as global lobbies usually consist of teams of 4 or more players. It is also something that we can still add to the game patch of the 24th of June, which is this Saturday.

It feels to me that it is a good middle ground between the people that want to be able to end a (large) game, and those people that feel like they get recalled often even when they disagree.

Anachronism_

@jip
I think that change, in combination with a lobby option that would let custom games adjust the required percent of votes for forced recall (with 100% being an option), sounds like a reasonable compromise.

CheeseBerry

@Jip requiring at least 3 people for a recall instead of 2 is less of a middle ground than one might think as most 4v4 games worth recalling also have one player dead. As a result a lot of the 4v4 recall situations would effectively also require recall to be unanimous, risking the come back of the ctrl-k meta.

Still, if false recalls are a sizable problem in 3v3 matchmaker, your proposed change might be worth experimenting with regardless.

Afterall, If it doesn't work out, we can reverse it and try a different fix. (cough allow changing your mind cough)

Ctrl-K

@CheeseBerry your ctrl-k meta is still here. In last game with "High rated players" FtX ctrl-k his base instead of recall! It is not a point anymore having it like this if people which were promoting it dont use it.

FtXCommando

True let’s delete it entirely again and bring back ctrl+k thank u azot

Ctrl-K

You are welcome!

Jip

@jip said in Adjust Recall:

What if we push that to three or less (alive) players remaining? That way you need all team members to agree with recalling in the 3v3 matchmaker.

The suggested adjustment is now live on the release branch.