A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community
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I feel like we have had this conversation before, but
If I were to grind up the ladder a little bit so I had the rating requirement...Minimum of 500 ladder games total to ensure it is not a smurf
I think I have roughly 350 games (my stats are hidden) And i've been here since 2015
Minimum of 50 ladder games a month to ensure no manipulation is at hand
Me attempting to do this is probably impossible at 1450, where games should theoretically be easier to come across.
I agree that creativity in tournaments is lacking. There is no hype, the promotion for tournaments is a joke most of the time, most of the community lack viewer etiquette and RUIN the experience for other people mid stream. etc etc.
Changing the rating bracket doesnt solve this in my opinion. At the end of the day, two people show up and stream a ladder game and someone gets money in the end. There is no continuting narrative, no reason to choose a side or otherwise really be involved. We can go on forever about this.
Having a new PC doesn't change this either, you can host a tournament whenever you want. If you want to play in one, I would just dump that responsibility on FtX by giving him the hosting duty. FtX might be 5'2, but a role like PC should not focus on one issue or it will burn FAF in the end.
What has happened to our TD pool? Do they simply no longer care about the game?
I am a TD and I typically don't have the timezone for FAF. That's why I help out in other areas like the LOTS promotion stuff you saw last year.
You are/were? also a TD.
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@biass said in [A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate"
I am a TD and I typically don't have the timezone for FAF. That's why I help out in other areas like the LOTS promotion stuff you saw last year.
To be a TD you need to have hosted a tournament in the past year, sorry bud
Edit: I have been informed biass hosts mapping tournaments, but sadly I am too wide to go into the mapping goblin dungeon to notice them.
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@archsimkat said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:
In addition to all the various tournaments Swkoll mentioned, isn't the League Invitational system FTX is setting up the exact solution for the issue you are raising? It is a tournament-style setting for the second/third rate players; it is based on ladder activity and not invite-only; and it, being casted on faflive, is very high visibility. In sum, it is the exact opposite of the event where Nexus/BH can come out of the woodwork and snatch up the winnings, and is designed specifically for the active "common folk".
Also, sorry, but this:
"A lot of respect to FTX for his work as of late, but if we do not see SOMETHING soon I would like to run for Player Councilor and attempt to try something different..."
seems to contradict this:
"Everyone, I do not have a lot of time these days as my job and family have taken much more of my "gaming spirit" hence why I stepped down from running the M&M council last year"
As FTX stated: no.
For the "available time" thing, it does, but I don't think I would spend as much time as he making decisions. I stand by my point that resetting the TMM rating was one of the worst and most damaging decisions thus far. We all make mistakes, so I do not singlehandedly hold it against him, but I would never in a million years think this is the right move. If you tried to do this with ladder rating people would be outraged. I think a far more simple: give new players a bit of an easier incoming experience is better than what was done by taking away the rating buildup from EVERYONE.
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@biass said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:
I feel like we have had this conversation before, but
If I were to grind up the ladder a little bit so I had the rating requirement...Minimum of 500 ladder games total to ensure it is not a smurf
I think I have roughly 350 games (my stats are hidden) And i've been here since 2015
Minimum of 50 ladder games a month to ensure no manipulation is at hand
Me attempting to do this is probably impossible at 1450, where games should theoretically be easier to come across.
I agree that creativity in tournaments is lacking. There is no hype, the promotion for tournaments is a joke most of the time, most of the community lack viewer etiquette and RUIN the experience for other people mid stream. etc etc.
Changing the rating bracket doesnt solve this in my opinion. At the end of the day, two people show up and stream a ladder game and someone gets money in the end. There is no continuting narrative, no reason to choose a side or otherwise really be involved. We can go on forever about this.
Having a new PC doesn't change this either, you can host a tournament whenever you want. If you want to play in one, I would just dump that responsibility on FtX by giving him the hosting duty. FtX might be 5'2, but a role like PC should not focus on one issue or it will burn FAF in the end.
What has happened to our TD pool? Do they simply no longer care about the game?
I am a TD and I typically don't have the timezone for FAF. That's why I help out in other areas like the LOTS promotion stuff you saw last year.
You are/were? also a TD.
Biass, I hear you on that. I never really asked but assume you would play more if your timezone did not have so little people to play.
Okay, I gave some example numbers on ladder game requirement, and I want to reference the last known "amateur 2v2" event Apofenas hosted, where later it was realized two, very frustrating individuals created smurf accounts to ruin the experience. You can call me a "smurf blamer" all you want, but there are plenty of recorded incidents causing mayhem. This would really need to be thought out and clear so it is avoided.
For folks like yourself, may a lowered amount of games is nice, and an account with as much history as yours would be easy to pass into invitation.
100% agree the promotion council needs to get addressed as I think it is a bit lacking. Anihilnine did state he would work out the details of the news front page, then move on as he is a busy guy with family and working on his own game, so again another case of someone in the council not really doing their job responsibly.
Last point, though, biass, have you played ANY ladder games in the past year or so? I can hardly believe you cannot get less than a few matches a week. I see Electrician and some other Oceania folks playing plenty, so what gives?
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I demoralized biass he just doesn’t have it in him anymore.
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@morax said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:
Last point, though, biass, have you played ANY ladder games in the past year or so? I can hardly believe you cannot get less than a few matches a week. I see Electrician and some other Oceania folks playing plenty, so what gives?
Last time I really felt a desire to improve at the game, I got put against Archsimkat (+500 rating)
I then searched for roughly 6 hours straight, to get Archsimkat again.It's possible to get it done if I really wanted to put time in (and inverted my work schedule) but I rather just play some global games when my friends are playing and focus on other stuff. Don't think I am obligated to play the game even if I am a councilor though, Refreshing my knowlege on the balance doesnt help me resolve IP law, or cover for AFK councilors.
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To be honest the only issue I see is that there is a lack of TD's. It's not like Ftx is opposed to events cattering to not tip top level players. After all he is hosting LoTS and the ladder league tourneys now, one event for top 10 and the other for 1.8k+. The other tourneys we have are hosted mainly by Swkoll who is an individual generous enough to spend both his money and a LOT of time to get some high level tourneys going and it's much appreciated but you can't hold it up against him that he is hosting tourneys for high ranked play and not mid-high, it's his decision. Then again, there was holiday tourney which was quite a success with a lot of sign ups and the tourney itself was promoted and covered so the infrastructure, even if it's not the best, is there, equally for mid and high level tourneys. The problem is that there aren't enough people wanting to host tourneys. I don't see how changing PC would even change that, what would happen? You would host them instead of LoTS/ladder league tourney? Why not do it now? Well, of course you want to participate in them, that's perfectly understandable. So the only solution it seems is to get more TD's to host more tourneys, mostly lower rated ones since we already have LoTS, and Swkoll's Invitationals for high level play. So that's where you should focus your attention instead of complaining that Ftx doesn't host more tourneys for mid and lower rated players
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I look at this way: There is a lack of TDs because people either do not want to work on FAF events or they are not willing to work with FTX
This is similar to there being VERY little people on the moderation team while Gorton was around because he himself was an awful moderator. Now that Gieb is in place - a much better manager - there are plenty of mods joining.
The real answer? I do not know, but i for one did not really enjoy hosting LoTS Group last year because the system was overly-complex and frustratingly long. The events tend to still go on way way too long and it makes the job of sitting around waiting forever unappealing to others who basically get a "thanks for hosting" and that is all.
I left the "ladder team" recently for similar reasons in that the debates on what map is good or bad was endless, often with FTX or arch shooting down any suggestions because they want "evidence." Arch nor FTX has any mapping knowledge and has to outsource it to biass or Jip to evaluate, so it gets rather cumbersome to take orders from people who hardly do it themselves.
I think it is great that FTX takes polls on opinions of this material, but in the end there are not really enough people with experience to make that valid. In the REAL world data sources are scrutinized for this kind of conclusions, and it makes me less than willing to actually work for someone who practices it.
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Yes, it may not be very easy to TD for LoTS but there are very FEW restrictions on hosting your own tourneys for mid - low rated players. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else to organize such events and changing PC won't do anything. The truth is that there are just very few mid rated players that are passionate enough with FAF AND tourneys that they are willing to host tourneys for that segment of players.
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How can you talk about using real world data sources and then write a post that has no concrete suggestions on how to move from X to Y to make things more efficient. In a real world consulting report, that would get you fired.
There is nothing here about improving my managing of TDs, there is nothing here about improving the design of LotS, there is nothing here about improving matchmaker team, and there is nothing here about utilizing better data points in my decision-making than what I already do.
The first I don't even know what you expect me to do. I couldn't be more off hands unless I just started giving money to people saying they were entertaining the idea of making a tournament. I also couldn't be more available to give input on tournaments unless I was an auto response spam bot.
The second what is the solution here? Do you want me to make LotS a 4 player tournament so TDs can simply go to bed after a hard 3 hours? BO1 games are not an option in a major competitive format so the only option available for you here is to lower the tournament player pool size. But you also want to encourage players that are at lower levels to play the game and reach higher levels, so how is that going to happen when LotS is open to the same 8 people year after year?
Matchmaker team I also have no idea what your problem or solution is supposed to be. Is the problem that me nor arch are mappers? Is being a mapper more important than understanding the game and how map structure impacts game behavior? Is it the same? If so, does that mean you need to be both a mapper and a high level player in order to design ladder pools? Do you recognize that restricts the pool of members to like 3 people which aren't even interested in working together let alone on ladder? I'm already having a tough time getting active players to help with matchmaker, how would adding MORE restrictions improve anything.
What data am I supposed to use from the real world for my decisions, genuinely curious. I look at tournaments in other games to gather input on how to improve FAF tournaments. I utilize FAF data dumps and polls when they're necessary for FAF decisions. Am I supposed to email Blizzard or Microsoft for their player data so I can make better decisions here or what?
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@tagada said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:
Yes, it may not be very easy to TD for LoTS but there are very FEW restrictions on hosting your own tourneys for mid - low rated players. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else to organize such events and changing PC won't do anything. The truth is that there are just very few mid rated players that are passionate enough with FAF AND tourneys that they are willing to host tourneys for that segment of players.
This may be true, and if that is the case then yes, it is a give up on my end. I would be out of ideas too but the question is why? I used to see a lot of tourneys at all levels such as the "Greenio amateur series" that would spotlight up and coming players.
For me, I think there has been such a lack of them in recent years and the promotion does not help, either. IF you think I am wrong, please show some evidence of a recent tourney of that nature where people simply "did not care" as you suggest.
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@ftxcommando said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:
How can you talk about using real world data sources and then write a post that has no concrete suggestions on how to move from X to Y to make things more efficient. In a real world consulting report, that would get you fired.
There is nothing here about improving my managing of TDs, there is nothing here about improving the design of LotS, there is nothing here about improving matchmaker team, and there is nothing here about utilizing better data points in my decision-making than what I already do.
The first I don't even know what you expect me to do. I couldn't be more off hands unless I just started giving money to people saying they were entertaining the idea of making a tournament. I also couldn't be more available to give input on tournaments unless I was an auto response spam bot.
The second what is the solution here? Do you want me to make LotS a 4 player tournament so TDs can simply go to bed after a hard 3 hours? BO1 games are not an option in a major competitive format so the only option available for you here is to lower the tournament player pool size. But you also want to encourage players that are at lower levels to play the game and reach higher levels, so how is that going to happen when LotS is open to the same 8 people year after year?
Matchmaker team I also have no idea what your problem or solution is supposed to be. Is the problem that me nor arch are mappers? Is being a mapper more important than understanding the game and how map structure impacts game behavior? Is it the same? If so, does that mean you need to be both a mapper and a high level player in order to design ladder pools? Do you recognize that restricts the pool of members to like 3 people which aren't even interested in working together let alone on ladder? I'm already having a tough time getting active players to help with matchmaker, how would adding MORE restrictions improve anything.
What data am I supposed to use from the real world for my decisions, genuinely curious. I look at tournaments in other games to gather input on how to improve FAF tournaments. I utilize FAF data dumps and polls when they're necessary for FAF decisions. Am I supposed to email Blizzard or Microsoft for their player data so I can make better decisions here or what?
Where is the ladder survey you took from 2 years ago? I need to read that again to give you proper feedback here.
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@morax said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:
For me, I think there has been such a lack of them in recent years and the promotion does not help, either. IF you think I am wrong, please show some evidence of a recent tourney of that nature where people simply "did not care" as you suggest.
Wym "did not care"?
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By the way, the sum up of this thread thus far: no one is interested and they don't need to be, although most of you are on the balance, moderation, and player council teams. It seems utterly crap that people with positions of power get to use the "we don't care excuse " over and over.
Please continue posting in this manner as it will help my case with the interested parties.
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Wym we do not care? XDD It's like, oh you are choosing to host 1 tourney and it's LoTS instead of a tourney for 1.6k's? Shame on you Ftx.
The only thing that comes out of this thread is : There is a problem eg. Not enough TD's overall and those that are willing to host low - mid - lower high rated tourneys in particular. How do you propose we solve such an issue? There has been 0 suggestions, just whining. It's not like Ftx did not try to tackle this problem, it;s just a hard one with no obvious solutions. -
@ftxcommando said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:
You tried to quantify it all rather use open-ended responses for situations.
Let me ask you, how many people in the lower tiers would reply "20x20 too annoying to play because big" as a response or "i don't like emerald crater because it is a stupid map that is boring" source: https://forum.faforever.com/topic/1530/emerald-craters/15
You don't have much real empathy for understanding situations with conversation from what I see in your decision-making for something with this much impact, spare maybe LoTS because there is a ton of money thrown at it. I have seen you write WAY MORE detailed posts about tourney structure to appeal to that event alone than anything.
If you could actually use some real, written feedback to these surveys I would like to see that.
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@morax said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:
By the way, the sum up of this thread thus far: no one is interested and they don't need to be, although most of you are on the balance, moderation, and player council teams. It seems utterly crap that people with positions of power get to use the "we don't care excuse " over and over.
Please continue posting in this manner as it will help my case with the interested parties.
Ah yes, I am sure that Ftx and others like me do not care at all and don't do anything, it's not like how Ftx cooridantes, prepares rule sets that can be set by any new TD so it's easier for them, gets some streamer/caster to cover a tourney etc. On the other hand I also contribute as I can, eg. I offer my lessons as prizes for such tourneys so ...
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There was a written feedback segment in that survey. I didn't post the results because it doesn't help people to post 250 written messages, half of which are in Russian. I looked through each and every comment there and had the Russian ones translated. It's why I wanted to make videos/guides for traditional lower level ladder maps in the <300 pool as that was a suggestion in the feedback section.
Honestly I feel like if I posted those comments I'd be sitting here reading people explain how I did it as an ego-trip because most of them were just explaining people were grateful for FAF, the people working on it, and that people continue to try to make it better.
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Just make a google doc or something and log it somewhere. You don't need to read it all but it would be interesting to see more detailed responses.
Can someone answer me, though, when was the last ~1800-ish event? What happened?
