Sera&Aoen SACU upgrade slots reordering to make Aoen SACU upgrade options more relevant and nerf Sera Tele SACU
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ive never been in a game where tele sacus sniping SMD was a thing.
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I haven't personally experienced it either, but a 50k hp, 265hp/s regenerating, teleporting unit that does high dps and also explodes upon death is the most insane thing in the game.
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@evildrew said in Sera&Aoen SACU upgrade slots reordering to make Aoen SACU upgrade options more relevant and nerf Sera Tele SACU:
Because it is close to impossible to counter it taking down an SMD, still would be hard to stop it but less unstoppable imo.
Your ACU can kill telesacu with overcharge faster than it kills the SMD for a fraction of energy and mass cost, making it effectively a waste of 20k mass and 1700000 energy.
The only problem is that telesacus leave like 1.5k mass reclaim, so unsuccesful teleport snipe is not as punishing as an unsuccesful strat or ahwassa attackAlso it takes a lot of time to make one of these, and its really obvious what your opponent is up to when you see a nuke + upgrading sera sacu combo
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Even a sera sacu with just tele and shield has 35k hp. It might have the same cost as a telelazer but you don't risk much considering you don't die if you fail plus you can make the upgrades from a base sacu and therefore don't donate any mass since that's how sacu mass works. You also can make infinite teleboys in theory compared to the 1 acu.
Even if it's obvious that it's coming (which it's often not if you're lategame enough on a 20km map where team e income easily exceeds 100k) you still need proper defenses for every single smd. However usually you only fully defend the first smd since it is the most important one and if a tele acu snipes a less defended smd you usually have air waiting to snipe him, so it trades 1 player for 1 less crucial smd. But since you can stack up multiple tele sacu's it doesn't really work like this.
Altogether i think tele sacu's sniping smd's is too powerfull although i'm not exactly sure to what extent. Some discussions were had about this in some balance call but i'm not sure if there was a conclusion.
Imo what makes most sense is to swap tele and tml since the base hp gain from shield is the highest. You keep all functional ability combo's as well.
I'm not sure though why on the other end you created a mega stacked aeon tele sacu thats basically stronger (or about as strong) as the current sera tele sacu. It will get tele with a 40k hp shield
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@terarii said in Sera&Aoen SACU upgrade slots reordering to make Aoen SACU upgrade options more relevant and nerf Sera Tele SACU:
@evildrew said in Sera&Aoen SACU upgrade slots reordering to make Aoen SACU upgrade options more relevant and nerf Sera Tele SACU:
Because it is close to impossible to counter it taking down an SMD, still would be hard to stop it but less unstoppable imo.
Your ACU can kill telesacu with overcharge faster than it kills the SMD for a fraction of energy and mass cost, making it effectively a waste of 20k mass and 1700000 energy.
The only problem is that telesacus leave like 1.5k mass reclaim, so unsuccesful teleport snipe is not as punishing as an unsuccesful strat or ahwassa attackAlso it takes a lot of time to make one of these, and its really obvious what your opponent is up to when you see a nuke + upgrading sera sacu combo
Auto OC fires every 5 seconds I think so that’s 15 seconds minimum to kill a tele sacu if you have enough storage and if you have enough E income. The sacu does 400 dps. That’s 6k damage. So you are wrong.
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@thewheelie said in Sera&Aoen SACU upgrade slots reordering to make Aoen SACU upgrade options more relevant and nerf Sera Tele SACU:
Even a sera sacu with just tele and shield has 35k hp. It might have the same cost as a telelazer but you don't risk much considering you don't die if you fail plus you can make the upgrades from a base sacu and therefore don't donate any mass since that's how sacu mass works. You also can make infinite teleboys in theory compared to the 1 acu.
Even if it's obvious that it's coming (which it's often not if you're lategame enough on a 20km map where team e income easily exceeds 100k) you still need proper defenses for every single smd. However usually you only fully defend the first smd since it is the most important one and if a tele acu snipes a less defended smd you usually have air waiting to snipe him, so it trades 1 player for 1 less crucial smd. But since you can stack up multiple tele sacu's it doesn't really work like this.
Altogether i think tele sacu's sniping smd's is too powerfull although i'm not exactly sure to what extent. Some discussions were had about this in some balance call but i'm not sure if there was a conclusion.
Imo what makes most sense is to swap tele and tml since the base hp gain from shield is the highest. You keep all functional ability combo's as well.
I'm not sure though why on the other end you created a mega stacked aeon tele sacu thats basically stronger (or about as strong) as the current sera tele sacu. It will get tele with a 40k hp shield
Aoen nano gives no hp boost. It is high regen like cybran nano. Aoen sacu have 300 dps sera 400 dps so an Aoen sacu with 55k hp vs sera with 35k hp is a close call. On a teleport mission their effectiveness would be similar, but one could always reduce Aoen first shield upgrade to have a little less hp.
Switching tele with tml would remove tele tml sacu which is fun but would enable tele OC sacu. Not a good idea. Why? Because scathis is not a building and dies to 1 OC.
We could give SMDs a bit more hp to reduce tele SACUs effectiveness vs defended SMDs. -
@evildrew said in Sera&Aoen SACU upgrade slots reordering to make Aoen SACU upgrade options more relevant and nerf Sera Tele SACU:
Auto OC fires every 5 seconds I think so that’s 15 seconds minimum to kill a tele sacu if you have enough storage and if you have enough E income. The sacu does 400 dps. That’s 6k damage. So you are wrong.
No, i am not wrong. You should always shield ur smd from all sides, and OC manually if you can.
Also in theory you should have enough energy to sustain OCing every 3.3 seconds, given that ur opponent somehow could afford a 20.000 mass/1.700.000 energy telesacu AND a 28.500 mass/1.900.000 energy nuke. -
@evildrew said in Sera&Aoen SACU upgrade slots reordering to make Aoen SACU upgrade options more relevant and nerf Sera Tele SACU:
Switching tele with tml would remove tele tml sacu which is fun but would enable tele OC sacu. Not a good idea. Why? Because scathis is not a building and dies to 1 OC.
We could give SMDs a bit more hp to reduce tele SACUs effectiveness vs defended SMDs.How would that remove tele tml when it just swaps them?
And ye didnt think about tele oc that would fucked -
@terarii said in Sera&Aoen SACU upgrade slots reordering to make Aoen SACU upgrade options more relevant and nerf Sera Tele SACU:
@evildrew said in Sera&Aoen SACU upgrade slots reordering to make Aoen SACU upgrade options more relevant and nerf Sera Tele SACU:
Auto OC fires every 5 seconds I think so that’s 15 seconds minimum to kill a tele sacu if you have enough storage and if you have enough E income. The sacu does 400 dps. That’s 6k damage. So you are wrong.
No, i am not wrong. You should always shield ur smd from all sides, and OC manually if you can.
Also in theory you should have enough energy to sustain OCing every 3.3 seconds, given that ur opponent somehow could afford a 20.000 mass/1.700.000 energy telesacu AND a 28.500 mass/1.900.000 energy nuke.Auto OC only fires every 5 seconds and manual OC cannot be fired every 3.3seconds even though it says you can there are reaction times and stuff that make it only theory. A tele sacu teles inside the shield, it can one shot a shield and walk over into the less protected side, the shield does not matter.
You are also forgetting that at the stage tele sacu will come into play may be at a stage when 4 missiles are loaded in the SMD and 3 nukes in the SML. A successful tele snipe will take out a lot more than it costs. It is not so straight forward just to look at the costs as you are doing. There are increasing rates of return on the attacking side over time as the game progresses. You can make a second SMD sure but maybe the tele Sacu goes for the air grid or a mass fab farm instead of the SMD. The key word here is optionality, that cannot be captured in a cost-benefit analysis that does not look at the whole picture. -
@thewheelie said in Sera&Aoen SACU upgrade slots reordering to make Aoen SACU upgrade options more relevant and nerf Sera Tele SACU:
@evildrew said in Sera&Aoen SACU upgrade slots reordering to make Aoen SACU upgrade options more relevant and nerf Sera Tele SACU:
Switching tele with tml would remove tele tml sacu which is fun but would enable tele OC sacu. Not a good idea. Why? Because scathis is not a building and dies to 1 OC.
We could give SMDs a bit more hp to reduce tele SACUs effectiveness vs defended SMDs.How would that remove tele tml when it just swaps them?
And ye didnt think about tele oc that would fuckedYeah it is early and typing on my phone, my mind and memory not up to speed so I mixed it up, tele tml still possible but tele OC is the main issue.
The key to weakening tele sacu on sera is to get tele and shield or tele and nano on the same layer. -
@evildrew said in Sera&Aoen SACU upgrade slots reordering to make Aoen SACU upgrade options more relevant and nerf Sera Tele SACU:
A tele sacu teles inside the shield, it can one shot a shield and walk over into the less protected side, the shield does not matter.
This forbidden structure from clearly more advanced civilisation took approximately 2:30 to penetrate with a single sacu, and i couldn't manage to find a single opening in the shields that would let me damage smd instead of them.
IF you happen to have no space around smd, you can have a single t2/t3 land fac producing t2/t3 mobile shields to protect it, and its even better since those can move to adjust to sacu movement.
@evildrew said in Sera&Aoen SACU upgrade slots reordering to make Aoen SACU upgrade options more relevant and nerf Sera Tele SACU:
Auto OC only fires every 5 seconds and manual OC cannot be fired every 3.3seconds even though it says you can there are reaction times and stuff that make it only theory.
As a fellow 2.2k rated player, you should be able to get yourself 15 seconds of free time to protect your most valuable building in the game by OCing manually, or ordering a few rows of t1 pds.
@evildrew said in Sera&Aoen SACU upgrade slots reordering to make Aoen SACU upgrade options more relevant and nerf Sera Tele SACU:
You are also forgetting that at the stage tele sacu will come into play may be at a stage when 4 missiles are loaded in the SMD and 3 nukes in the SML. A successful tele snipe will take out a lot more than it costs
At that stage, usually you have atleast 2 smds, both protected by shields and pds. An unsuccesfull telesnipe would be 20k+20k+16.5k+12k+12k+12k mass cost just wasted on nothing, leaving you to nuke random enemy buildings out of smd range.
@evildrew said in Sera&Aoen SACU upgrade slots reordering to make Aoen SACU upgrade options more relevant and nerf Sera Tele SACU:
Sacu goes for the air grid or a mass fab farm instead of the SMD. The key word here is optionality, that cannot be captured in a cost-benefit analysis that does not look at the whole picture.
SACU going for a grid is pretty much waste, unless its a t2 massfab grid that will go off from a single sacu shot. Otherwise, any pgen/t3 massfab would be reclaimed faster than ur sacu can kill it
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@terarii I have never seen anyone protect an SMD in that way. Tele sacu attacks are so rare on SMDs that almost no one will protect their SMD in that way. If you do though you have a lot of added costs and occupy a lot of space which on some maps you have but not always in the exact spot where you want to place your SMD.
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@evildrew said in Sera&Aoen SACU upgrade slots reordering to make Aoen SACU upgrade options more relevant and nerf Sera Tele SACU:
I have never seen anyone protect an SMD in that way. Tele sacu attacks are so rare on SMDs that almost no one will protect their SMD in that way.
You clearly havent played dualgap enough my friend. Mobile shield protecting valuable structures is super common there now.
I also forgot to mention that you can repair smd faster than sacu can deal damage, or build new shields as soon as previous ones die.
@evildrew said in Sera&Aoen SACU upgrade slots reordering to make Aoen SACU upgrade options more relevant and nerf Sera Tele SACU:
If you do though you have a lot of added costs and occupy a lot of space which on some maps you have but not always in the exact spot where you want to place your SMD.
3000-5000 mass on shields is not a lot of added costs. In case of having not enough space you can build mobile shields or repair your SMD.
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@terarii said in Sera&Aoen SACU upgrade slots reordering to make Aoen SACU upgrade options more relevant and nerf Sera Tele SACU:
@evildrew said in Sera&Aoen SACU upgrade slots reordering to make Aoen SACU upgrade options more relevant and nerf Sera Tele SACU:
I have never seen anyone protect an SMD in that way. Tele sacu attacks are so rare on SMDs that almost no one will protect their SMD in that way.
You clearly havent played dualgap enough my friend. Mobile shield protecting valuable structures is super common there now.
I also forgot to mention that you can repair smd faster than sacu can deal damage, or build new shields as soon as previous ones die.
@evildrew said in Sera&Aoen SACU upgrade slots reordering to make Aoen SACU upgrade options more relevant and nerf Sera Tele SACU:
If you do though you have a lot of added costs and occupy a lot of space which on some maps you have but not always in the exact spot where you want to place your SMD.
3000-5000 mass on shields is not a lot of added costs. In case of having not enough space you can build mobile shields or repair your SMD.
I may not play dual gap out of my own free will but I do watch people on discord streaming it. They usually place the SMD close to their core Mexes and hives so that kind of shielding doesnt fit. Anyway I am looking at it on a wholistic approach. On setons which you play nowadays, you know that people don’t establish their hive farm around the SMD, nor do they place the SMD out in the open to be surrounded by shields like that. It is on the coast, next to the mountain/hill…
So we have to conceive of a generalized SMD placement and positioning when assessing if it is OP or balanced.
Regarding the air grid or mass fab targets. You as the defending player do not know if the tele sacu will be a shielded nano or engineer tml sacu unless you happen to be scouting and looking closely at the right thing at the right time. -
@evildrew said in Sera&Aoen SACU upgrade slots reordering to make Aoen SACU upgrade options more relevant and nerf Sera Tele SACU:
On setons which you play nowadays, you know that people don’t establish their hive farm around the SMD, nor do they place the SMD out in the open to be surrounded by shields like that. It is on the coast, next to the mountain/hill…
Setons players build SMDs not on main base for several reasons:
a)On air, It protects both top and bottom plains you can build air grid on, since 99% of setons land is practically unusable. On rock, SMD near hill is protected from air snipes, and SMD on beach protects ur t3 navy HQ, which is actually the most valuable nuke target on that slot
b) nuke+telesacu combo takes so much mass, power and time, so doing means a certain loss of your slot, and loss of the game later, either by having one of your navies crushed, or air crushed and navy torped.
c) Even if main base gets nuked, smd survives and lets you rebuild without having all your BP assisting it.@evildrew said in Sera&Aoen SACU upgrade slots reordering to make Aoen SACU upgrade options more relevant and nerf Sera Tele SACU:
Regarding the air grid or mass fab targets. You as the defending player do not know if the tele sacu will be a shielded nano or engineer tml sacu unless you happen to be scouting and looking closely at the right thing at the right time.
Sacus can be told apart just by looking at teleporting distance, nobody would ever tele a shielded sacu 2 kilometers away from its target
Engineering TML sacu can launch a whopping 1 or 2 TMLS (enough to penetrate a single t2 shield or kill a single t3 pgen) before you get the TMD built.
Shield nano sacu usually dies to t1 bomber spam and does nothing other than making the air guy reclaim 1-2 pgens.
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@terarii you make too many assumptions about having sufficient build power in all areas and reacting in time, especially with aoen tmd having no range that is a problem. Also you often won’t notice a tele tml sacu until your mass fab blows up. SACUs can build shield stealth flak and even more tml launchers on bigger maps while being unnoticed. You just cannot assume that a defending player is always aware of an Sacu having teled in.
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@evildrew in a 0 rating average game your logic makes sense, but anyone with 1500+ rating and atleast some game and player knowledge would be able to counter any tele with ease. You just cannot assume that a defending player is always zoomed into his mexes with minimap closed and no intel whatsoever.
