M28AI Devlog (v144)
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Yeah Its still on Steam, then the only thing I can think about is some of the mods are changed it. I need to look into it, but I'm not exactly a pro in this field, just like to dabble here and there.
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v140 Update
9 changes, including:- New M28 Random option - it will pick from one of the AI personalities (other than M28Easy) at the start of the game.
- Fixed several bugs introduced in the last update relating to factories deciding what to build.
- T3 mobile shields should be used similarly to shield boats when on water
- M28Air should no longer rush an experimental as quickly as other M28AI (since it'd try rushing an air experimental, before it had even built asfs, in some cases)
Acknowledgements
- Azraeel - LOUD replay
- Vortex - LOUD replay and mentioning a potential M28 bug with player TMLs being paused
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v141 Update
New M28Navy variant, which looks to get more naval units, including naval experimentals, at the expense of its land and air force.4 other changes, including:
- Fixing a bug when deciding what experimental to build
- Atlantis shouldn't submerge if navy is won
- Non-amphibious naval units (such as destroyers) should switch to attack-move when retreating and close to their destination, so they are less likely to turn their backs on an enemy that's attacking a nearby naval factory
Acknowledgements
- Vortex - LOUD replay from v139
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v142 Update
Smaller update fixing a few bugs:- Fixed an error with one of M28’s land factory builders that could prevent land factories building.
- T1-T2 engineers should no longer be built at a core base when close to the unit cap with T3 engineers available.
- Reduced the amount of T2 arti to be built in respect of a far away enemy threat (such as a fatboy) if we have a significantly stronger mobile force than the enemy.
- Fixed a bug that meant M28’s logic for prioritising production due to the enemy having a greater mobile ground threat wasn’t working.
- Fixed errors that could arise when M28 tried assisting a naval factory in a water zone with no naval factory.
Acknowledgements
- Fearghal - Replay that prompted majority of the above changes
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v143 Update
- Mexes built in another player's core base should be more likely to be gifted over even if they're closer to M28 than that other player (e.g. maps like advanced pass)
- Units should be less likely to engage long ranged threats/firebases
- M28's shared armies UI button can be hidden via the game options
- Fewer T1 arti should be built in response to T1 PD and at the early T2 stage
- Fixed a bug and added a redundancy to M28's asf hover-micro
Acknowledgements
- Wingflier – LOUD replay
- Zeotile – noticing the M28 mod description doesn’t reflect that it’s compatible with LOUD or steam
- Rhaelya – 2 replays fighting M28 on open palms, and highlighting the overbuilding of T1 arti
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Hi Maudlin27,
First off, awesome job on the M28 AI mod—it keeps getting better with every update! Lately, I’ve run into a couple of issues and wanted to ask for your input.
I’ve noticed that the Overwhelm Rate, Overwhelm Interval, and Overwhelm Limit settings don’t seem to work as intended. From what I understand, these should gradually increase the AIX's cheat multipliers over time, but I haven’t seen any changes after adjusting these settings. I’m using game version 3984, with default options.
Another issue involves M28's strategy on large maps. We had a 3v3 on a 40km x 40km naval map with lots of resources (Peer Player, 16+ mass points each). We set up 3 M28 AIs with a 1.5*1.5 multiplier. We rushed to build a Paragon: Experimental Resource Generator at around 25 minutes, protected by 30+ shield generators, but M28 didn’t respond effectively and was eventually overwhelmed by approximately 10 Mavors.
By the late game, M28 AIX had relative air superiority with over a dozen T4 air units, but they remained idle around the base and didn’t prioritize key targets.
Lastly, I noticed M28 AIX had no defense against T3 bomber snipes on the ACU. On large maps, it seems vulnerable to such tactics, without strong countermeasures.
Do you have any suggestions or insights into these issues? Are these areas for potential improvement in future updates? -
@kagurazakanana
Thanks for the feedback, in respect of your points:-
AIx Overwhelm issues - I'm assuming you're playing with AIx M28, could you send me the replay ID where this doesn't work? Testing just now it's working as I'd expect.
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40km 3v3 - If you send me the replay ID I can have a look at what it did for if there are any obvious improvements that could be made. I suspect given the map size and it being a naval map it was simply too slow to capitalise on its higher AIx modifier, since it may choose to invest heavily in navy (and I'm assuming the paragon was outside of naval range)
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Not attacking with T4 air - This will depend on how much anti-air there is, so I'd need a replay to check whether it was being over-cautious
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Bomber snipes - it should intercept strats with asfs (as well as having the ACU under a shield, with health upgrades, and SAMs). My guess would be this was on a 40km map and its air force was too far from the ACU when the strats were spotted (but if it had asfs and didn't even try to intercept the strats then send me the replay)
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Hi Maudlin27,
Thanks for your prompt response! Here's my feedback and follow-up on the points you raised:
Replay Upload:
Unfortunately, our last game was played on a local LAN setup, so no replay was saved. I’ll make sure to upload the replay from our next match for you to review once we've played another game.
AIx Overwhelm Settings:
Regarding the Overwhelm Rate, Overwhelm Interval, and Overwhelm Limit, I did notice that M28’s economy improves over time, but the build rate (e.g., engineers' build speed) didn’t noticeably change. One specific example: M28 was set to a (1.21.0) multiplier, with Overwhelm values of 0.1, 5, and 10. By the 28-minute mark, a T3 power generator should have been producing 25001.2(1.1^5) = 4831.53, but it was only producing 4000. Similarly, T3 mass extractors were only producing +28 mass/second when I expected them to be around +52.
40km Naval Map:
Yes, it was indeed a naval map, and it’s based on an older version you can find on the FAF client under the name "Durex 40km".
Paragon and Naval Battles:
The Paragon was outside of naval range, and the AI spent considerable resources on its navy. However, the AI couldn't effectively leverage its battleships. The players were able to focus fire with battleships and used nukes to clear specific targets, leading to a cost-ineffective navy for the AI. This allowed the players to cheaply fend off sea attacks.
T4 Air Attacks in Late Game:
M28’s air strategy was solid during the early and mid-game (with many successful gunship strikes), but by the late game, even though it had significant T4 air units, it stopped attacking aggressively. In that match, the defending player had about 300+ T3 sam AA, 500 ASF (with 50 T3 air factories constantly producing), as well as a large number of Aeon T2 move AA and cruisers; however, these defenses were spread thin across the map. Meanwhile, M28 had 10-15 CZARs, along with many gunships and ASFs, which could have broken through. I suspect M28 evaluates the total number of AA units rather than factoring in the map size and positioning when deciding whether or not to proceed with an attack.
Unit Sharing After Ally Defeats:
One observation was that once all of M28’s allies were defeated and their units were shared, M28 started attacking with those units, but by then it was too late. I suspect M28 isn’t accounting for the availability of allied units earlier in the match, which could have provided an advantage.
Bomber Snipes and ASF Response:
M28 did respond by sending ASFs to intercept once it detected T3 bombers, but my teammates deliberately distracted the ASFs by sending forward CZARs and Soul Rippers. This shifted the AI’s focus, allowing bomber attacks at the map’s edge to go unnoticed.
Misuse of ASFs:
In some cases, M28 ASFs would dive directly into dense anti-air zones, leaving behind large wreck fields. There were also times when the factory rally points were placed inside AA zones and remained there for the rest of the game.
Some Minor Suggestions for Improvement:
Allied Unit Management:Multiple AI allies producing the same type of experimental units (like CZARs or Soul Rippers) don’t share them efficiently amongst each other. Perhaps consolidating some of these forces under the control of one stronger AI could make their use more effective.
Mass Extractor Sharing:
M28 AIs on the same team don’t seem to gift upgraded mass extractors to their allies. When one AI upgrades its mass points, sharing the upgraded extractors with allies could help boost their economies, especially on larger maps.
Engineer Sharing:
M28 AIs on the same team don’t share engineers, which could improve characteristic and construction efficiency.
Experimental Construction Prioritization:
M28 doesn’t seem to prioritize certain experimental units correctly. It often builds Salvation or Scathis, which are ineffective against shields, rather than opting for more impactful units like Paragon or Mavor.
-some m28and game setting:
1.5*1.5 (other def)
no mod open(only m28ai(v142) )
Thanks again for all your efforts. I’ll get you the replay from our next game as soon as possible for further review. -
@kagurazakanana Thanks for the suggestions. Some are already present in M28AI, others the approach taken is intentional, while others I'd need a replay to consider further:
- AIx overwhelm - The main thing I'd be interested in is if the limit of the AIx overwhelm doesn't apply properly - I'm more relaxed if the timing is slightly out on when the bonus gets applied, as in the basic sandbox tests I've applied the bonus seems to take place roughly when I'd expect. So for example if you're applying AIx overwhelm with a 1.5 limit, and well after the time that it should've reached that limit it still isn't at +50% resources, then send me hte replay and I can check.
- Paragon and naval battles - replay would be needed - e.g. the one scenario that might be possible to adjust is where M28 starts losing significant navy to nukes, in which case it could switch to other units like a game-ender. It should already reduce battleship construction once it gets a large amount if it has control of the waters (so my guess is the battleships keep dying to things like nukes, causing it to keep investing in navy instead of a game-ender). A replay would simplalry help re deciding whether it's worth adding logic to switch to a game-ender where the enemy is getting one and it can't be reached with navy or non-amphibious land units.
- T4 air attacks - If there were 500 asfs then there's a good chance it'd be enough to dissuade M28. If it's getting to the point where M28 has a czar for every 25 enemy asfs and it's still not attacking then let me know and I can do some sandbox tests, but the enemy having c.50 asfs per czar doesn't sound too unreasonable for it to be cautious (from memory the break even point was somewhere between 30-50 asfs when I sandboxed a couple of years ago as a human player)
- Impact of allied units - yes M28 ignores allied units for the most part, with the exception of human players if shared armies is enabled. This is intentional, as particularly with weaker AI (like the default AI) M28 can't rely on those units attacking at the same time as it. It'd also have cpu and memory implications if it was to factor in those units the same as its own.
- Bomber snipes working due to experimental decoy - Although it evidently cost it the game, I'm relatively relaxed about such a decoy working, as it means the AI can be tricked, and often an experimental air unit presents its own existentional threat for the AI
- Misuse of ASFs - I'd need a replay for anything like that, it's meant to avoid SAMs in most cases (an exception would be if it had a czar or other high value unit nearby it was trying to protect)
- Multiple AI allies not sharing - M28 doesnt have this problem, all M28 AI on the same team will share all units between themselves (i.e. it applies a hive mind approach to control for the most part).
That said, where the team is spread out on a large map it might divie itself into 2 'hive-minds' for certain things like air units.
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Extractor sharing - M28 gifts mass storage to whoever owns the mex to ensure the adjacency bonus. It doesnt need to share mexes between other M28AI as it shares mass instead
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Engineer sharing - Engineers work together to build something, e.g. if you have 4 M28AI on the same team, and they all have engineers in the same small area, then they'll work together on big projects such as experimentals. Coupled with the resource sharing mentioned above, that means this would have minimal impact (the main use case, which M28 already caters for to some extent, is a teammate's engineer can block construction of a unit)
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Experimental construction prioritisation - It prefers paragon and mavor to scathis. Salvation gets built if it's eco so high already that paragon wouldn't provide a significant benefit. What I expect is happening is that the Cybran M28AI is in a position to build a game-ender, and has no T3 engineers of another faction near where it wants to build the game-ender, in which case it builds scathis. This is intended, as it's a balance between M28 going for what it htinks is best, allowing players to have influence on how the AI will play to some extent i.e. having a Cybran in a team so there's a chance scathis gets built), and avoiding scenarios where the Cybran in a safe eco slot doesnt build anything, while the UEF in the front 'mid' type slop gets a mavor (that is easily killed due to being on the frontline).
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v144 Update
9 changes, including:- Transports shouldn't drop a zone already being dropped
- Pre-emptive PD against further away enemy threats
- Asfs should be less likely to engage non-priority enemy air threats if lacking air control
- 2 LOUD specific changes - more Blackops ACU upgrade support, and M28's nuke dodging logic should now be supported in LOUD
Acknowledgements
- Vortex - several replays, and highlighting that M28's nuke dodging logic wasn't working
