Proposal: T3 Arty & Movement
Would an increase to deploy and or move speed help this at all? If so how much?
I'm not sure if still available but t3 snipers (or 1 of the 2) are/were able to deploy manually and fire while moving.
I do support the overall suggestion or some variation of buffing (at least Trebuchet) however would like to see the option to manually deploy if not too invasive to increase some stat (less spread, fire speed etc.).
Either way tist may require nerfing a stat to gain the advantage of mobile fire but that can be fixed later.
It would make more sense to increase T3 mobile arty range to significantly beyond that of snipers. Current range is 90, a buff to 118 (T2 stationary arty is 128 for reference) would make sense. Personally, I was a fan of the nerf to T3 arty unpack time and making T3 arty mobile would nullify that change.
Also, based on the OP, it sounds like this is more of a Cybran problem than a problem with T3 mobile artillery. I therefore propose the novel solution of allowing Cybran T3 land factories to construct Salems (Cybran T2 destroyers).
@FunkOff I think this (range increase) would be a great change that removes how broken T2 stationary arty is.
However, we need to be very careful that we're not gimping Fatboy as its already in a precarious position, having a huge hit target, and mediocre range for a siege T4 unit.
This is definitely a cybran problem as all other factions can just build shields. But then Cybran have the strongest T4 units, so there really is much point in long drawn out T3 gameplay for Cybran. Megalith just dominate so hard.
I can write up a giant post separately if it needs to meet forum guidelines, but in the meantime I want to offer another viewpoint.
I think we are going about this the wrong way. I do not think the answer to sniperbots being oppressive due to their damage and kiting is to make another unit that can counter them with damage, splash damage, and kiting. I think we are going backwards, and this will lead to more problems. Even more so if you have stealth trebuchet armies firing on the move. shudder
I think the root problem is the overtuned strength of mobile shields, absolvers, sniperbots, and a gun ACU with absurd range OC's and chrono/sheild. Fix this problem and the sniperbots will be much easier to deal with. Sniperbots really only work well with good support, and aeon has the best support options in the game to allow the sniperbot abuse.
@FTXCommando - I'm in the rare position of agreeing with absolutely everything your just said Apart from, perhaps, the proposed solution...
I think a couple of better ones have been proposed in this thread. In order of what I think will be most successful:
- Tune the interaction between Sniper/Shield mixes and Titan/Loyalist pushes specifically. +0.5 speed on the latter, 25% increase in shield drain, and a reduction of something like 10% in shield HP would, I think, have quite an effect.
- Increase T3 Mobile Arty range as FunkOff suggested, though the balance with Fatboy needs to be careful. I believe Fatboy should still outrange them, so if you go this route the numbers I suggest are Mobile Arty 90 -> 105, Fatboy 100 -> 110. I don't think that would break Fatboy particularly. Keep the necessity to deploy, it's a key part of their balance in other matchups.
End of the day, I think it's also important to realise that "They can get this strong on the main battlefield so the others have to too" is not the only way to balance factions. You could pursue a route which recognises that, hey, a good Aeon or Seraphim player in the lategame with a properly constructed and microed army just cannot be stopped by UEF or Cybran on the ground without going T4, and give UEF and Cybran wins in other situations. Perhaps the solution to a group of Mobile Shields, Snipers, and Harbingers/Othuums should be T3 Gunships or Strats. Perhaps you could look at slowing down both Mobile Shields and Snipers, meaning that they take longer to cover ground while the team of Titans or Loyalists which can no longer take them head off spear around the back to attack your T3 PGens directly and crap all over your base to drop the Shields. Perhaps for Aeon, you make Disrupters and Snipers a unit pair by giving Snipers a penalty against Shields with a negative damage multiplier, forcing the Aeon player to spend mass on Distrupters which is wasted against Percivals, or mass on Snipers to counter Percivals which is wasted on Titans. Cybrans could then have their own strategies of sneakiness buffed, or just given a stronger win elsewhere.
There's lots of different ways to approach this and it deserves a bit more thought I think. Removing the deployment time, however, does not strike me as the correct answer. @Tex is correct, that is likely to lead to more problems down the line. It smells of a bandage on a larger problem to me.
Maybe buff T2 MMLs to have range 80? (And buff T3 MML too)
Will need some testing to not made snipers obsolete but can be solution of problem
PS T3 MML don't looks OP aganist snipers in TS replay for me
I'm generally in favor of all buffs to siege weapons. Tanks and direct fire bots have ruled FAF since the beginning.
Also Salems built from Cybran T3 land factory is still an option.
@FunkOff Salems from land factory should be an April Fools patch.
Can you imagine the memes?
But yes siege weaponary in general needs a buff.
In fact if we are increasing range of T3 MMA then we should give fatty same range as T2 arty.
Another option is to increase splash damage of MMLs so they have a little more utility against mobile armies - that way a unit scooting over a micrometer doesn't successfully dodge MML missiles. But then that gets into the question of whether TMLs should also get their damage radius buffed, and if so that could potentially make ACU TML packs really strong, which is probably not desired as only 2 factions have a TML pack...
If you buff t3 arty range it can mess with naval bombardment, in a cast awhile back on setons t3 arty did do significant damage to the naval, although a lack of micro or targeting had something to do with it, I'll find the game if someone asks.
All t3 BS outrange t3 ma by a long shot, even Aeon BS. And t3 ma outranged t2 destros for like as long as I can remember.
Firebeetle + Deceiver combo does pretty well vs Othuum + Sniper bots: https://replay.faforever.com/13464612
I'm shit at microing firebeetles so I fail the first attempt, but the second almost entirely wipes the force.
Yeah yeah scouting/omni
@Deribus There's no scouting, no enemy movement, small engagement scale and clumped up enemy units. Beetles (at least right now) are very bad at targeting moving units.
Shield creep is nothing anyone serious about the game ever does, regardless of faction
@IceDreamer I agree with literally everything you said except the damage multipliers. Damage numbers should remain flat otherwise the game will become a rock paper scissors matchup.
A range change to T3 arty would be nice. The values IceDreamer suggested sound reasonable but might make the Fatboy a little too strong. Perhaps a marginal (e.g. 0.1 or less) speed decrease on Fatboy to balance out the +10 range increase to maintain the Fatboy VS Direct Fire experimental matchup.
The point about accepting some factions are unbeatable in certain areas in certain stages of the game is true yet people often forget that.
I would like to add a few other suggestions to make Cybran suffer less without actually addressing the problem.
- Build T2 arty and/or t2 shields to fight off or protect your army, reclaiming useless/out-of-position structures as you go.
- Use terrain to shield units. It will protect your T3 arty while allowing your direct fire units to get in close. (This assumes you are playing on a decent map.)
- Accept you are screwed and build static defences and a Megalith while you lament your bad gameplay for allowing a critical mass of snipers.
- Wait for April fools day so you can build Salem's out of your T3 land factory.
- Build the Soul Ripper and after it is instantly killed by ASF use it's crash damage to kill the snipers.
Joking aside, I'd suggest building one T2 shield behind terrain and lobbing arty shells over onto the snipers. If the map does not allow for that you had better accept Cybran can't win that fight and invest in T3 air while building a few static defences to hold the snipers at bay.