Support Factories: Costs, Build Power and Build Time

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1st the reason for T3 land being "more defensive" is that each dead T3 land unit on enemy territory is a T2 mex in reclaim.
2nd raducing fac bp as you suggest would result in more units in production at once->making engie assist more of a requirement early on and thereby even making T3 support facs less usefull. the reason they exist is that they are nice, easy to get bp (just upgrade your t2 facs) without getting your T3 stuck in some clusterfuck of assisting engies.
Economic drain is a no argument, since you just need to upgrade less facs, untill oyu have the eco to support it (it would only result in having to build double the facs later on having double stuck in production).
Also you dont need T3 eco for T3 spam, and usually get it way before.
also how does every fac cost 3-5k mass? 1 T3 supportfac is 1440 mass (~800 for the upgrade from t2). only the HQ is that expensive

Forumpros doing balance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SJhLlucMXE .
When a canis player remembers to build more than 3 units https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hjp8xJHuyA .

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@HoujouSatoko said in Support Factories: Costs, Build Power and Build Time:

1st the reason for T3 land being "more defensive" is that each dead T3 land unit on enemy territory is a T2 mex in reclaim.
2nd raducing fac bp as you suggest would result in more units in production at once->making engie assist more of a requirement early on and thereby even making T3 support facs less usefull. the reason they exist is that they are nice, easy to get bp (just upgrade your t2 facs) without getting your T3 stuck in some clusterfuck of assisting engies.
Economic drain is a no argument, since you just need to upgrade less facs, untill oyu have the eco to support it (it would only result in having to build double the facs later on having double stuck in production).
Also you dont need T3 eco for T3 spam, and usually get it way before.
also how does every fac cost 3-5k mass? 1 T3 supportfac is 1440 mass (~800 for the upgrade from t2). only the HQ is that expensive

Because to maintain the production/eco drain per second of a factory is 16 mass (unassisted) so looking at 1 T3 Mex (4000ish Mass) or 4 T2 Mex (900 x 4) mass.

But other question/thing curious: regardless of actual BP of factories et all.

Is Net BT of T2 Supports supposed to be same speed/slower when building them directly vs building T1 Factory and upgrading said factory to a T2 Support.

I’m a shitty 1k Global. Any balance or gameplay suggestions should be understood or taken as such.

Project Head and current Owner/Manager of SCTA Project

0

i think thats a non issue 99% anyways )), because for yoour main production ou upgrade t1 facs anyways and if you want production at the front or expansions you want to assist with a lot of bp there anyways (else the units walking from your base will still be faster, since it takes so long to build), and then the little additional bp from the T1 fac doesnt matter much.

Forumpros doing balance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SJhLlucMXE .
When a canis player remembers to build more than 3 units https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hjp8xJHuyA .

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Houjou, not sure if you understood I was talking about; T2 Engi Building T2 Support directly is slower than a T1 Engi building a T1 Factory which then upgrades itself to T2 Support (unassisted by said T1 Engi). With the exception of Air weirdly enough. That feels....backward to me?

Like shouldn't a T2 Engi building a T2 Support Factory be faster than a T1 Engi building T1 Factory that then said factory upgrades itself to a T2 Support Factory.

I’m a shitty 1k Global. Any balance or gameplay suggestions should be understood or taken as such.

Project Head and current Owner/Manager of SCTA Project

0

the reason for support fac bts is how fast tech transitions are supposed to happen and balanced around that. the effect you desribed is just a (for balance rather irrelevant) sideeffect.

Forumpros doing balance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SJhLlucMXE .
When a canis player remembers to build more than 3 units https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hjp8xJHuyA .

0

Dragun I am not sure what you want to say with this thread. I feel like the main concern is that on t2/t3 stage you will have a lot less factories in your base than at late t1 stage. It doesn't matter how many factories there are. The issue is that you want to switch all of your production into the higher tech as fast as possible after you got your tech upgrade. So within a couple of minutes you are supposed to nearly stop t1 production. For obvious reasons you want to have more buildpower on the t2 factories and your eco usually doesn't increase at all during a tech switch. That is the reason why you have less factories running after a tech switch.
The in all regards cheaper support factory upgrade than building from scratch just makes the t2 switch faster. Therefore being an indirect buff to switching tech.
I can see that it would be easier for a beginner if the number of factories would roughly stay constant from one point on in the game. He doesn't have to think about how many factories he needs to ctrl k when he switches to higher tech. But I don't see an easy way to do that and I would consider getting an intuition about build power in different tech stages is just a part of becoming good at the game.
Also I mostly wrote what Turin wrote in other words. Just to be clear 🙂

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Fair fair, the BP thing is properly a dumb idea on my end. But I still find it exceedingly strange that direct building T2 (Land and Naval) Support with T2 Engi’s is not faster than T1 Engi building T1 Land then upgrading to (unassisted) T2 Support.

Also main concern is that my understanding is that post EngiMod was supporting having multiple higher tech factories. But I see (espacially T3) having - HQ then mass supporting Engies.

I’m a shitty 1k Global. Any balance or gameplay suggestions should be understood or taken as such.

Project Head and current Owner/Manager of SCTA Project

0

The fact that each t3 unit is a t2 mex in reclaim is one of the reasons the game devolves so much. I think at that point your punishing attack too much at late game.

AI Developer for FAF | https://forum.faforever.com/topic/53/ai-swarm-ai-mod-for-faforever

Developer for LOUD Project | https://discord.gg/DfWXMg9

AI Development FAF Discord | https://discord.gg/ChRfhB3

Apparently also a FAF Developer now!

2

Making Reclain like 20% of the original unit cost or even lower will make gameplay 100x better honestly you'll get a lot more action, lot more risk, but overtime you can still lose from reclaim war. This also fights turtling and not only that you dont have to worry about losing the game so fast due to one battle, also slows the pace of the game especially late game where shit tons of reclaim that causes the game to slog.

@HoujouSatoko

AI Developer for FAF | https://forum.faforever.com/topic/53/ai-swarm-ai-mod-for-faforever

Developer for LOUD Project | https://discord.gg/DfWXMg9

AI Development FAF Discord | https://discord.gg/ChRfhB3

Apparently also a FAF Developer now!

1

You kind of want the game to end though. The huge mass cost in t3 armies/ experimentals makes the game quite unstable/ unforgiving towards the end. Otherwise you would just throw experimentals around for the next half an hour.

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@harzer99 said in Support Factories: Costs, Build Power and Build Time:

You kind of want the game to end though. The huge mass cost in t3 armies/ experimentals makes the game quite unstable/ unforgiving towards the end. Otherwise you would just throw experimentals around for the next half an hour.

Strawman's Argument,

This is what Supreme Commander is all about large armies and huge experimental wars. Its something you have to face when turning this game into a competitive Atmosphere. This game could still very competitive and if you want to end it early game you'll just have to work harder.

The Original Developers of Supcom intended this game for huge long matches of Huge T3 Armies and Experimentals. You can't be scared to embrace that even in a competitive Environment. Though sadly this has been linked to "Noobs and Turtles" but i assure you even some better players would like longer games. I cant help to feel that FAF is stuck on an endless loop of trying to beat what the game was meant to be, you cant hold the games ideal back, you can embrace it and it still be extremely competitive.

AI Developer for FAF | https://forum.faforever.com/topic/53/ai-swarm-ai-mod-for-faforever

Developer for LOUD Project | https://discord.gg/DfWXMg9

AI Development FAF Discord | https://discord.gg/ChRfhB3

Apparently also a FAF Developer now!

0

Supreme Commander will always be advertised as a game about the clash of Huge Armies of epic proportional. You can not escape this no matter how you balance the game. You can still micro and macro even with these Huge Armies; you can still have all the skill you have right now. The game can not always be t1 or t2 if your scared to go late game because of Simspeed or because of the slog. You have to live up the fact, that you'll have to eventually fix these issues with radical balance changes and rewriting lots of code and more, This is my only wisdom i give as a person who already witness what fixing these issues can create, like we did over at LOUD, over at LOUD. We try to satisfy everyone's needs and wants. We've rewritten most of the code of the entire game for better Simspeed, we've allowed new units into our balance and we've balanced around really expanding Supreme Commander, the general idea of what Supreme Commander is suppose to be is the idea of LOUD as a whole.

❤

AI Developer for FAF | https://forum.faforever.com/topic/53/ai-swarm-ai-mod-for-faforever

Developer for LOUD Project | https://discord.gg/DfWXMg9

AI Development FAF Discord | https://discord.gg/ChRfhB3

Apparently also a FAF Developer now!

4

cool story

3

ive decided to become a professional loud player

1

I would say my thread has turned into a meme now but that would imply it was anything but a meme from the start

I’m a shitty 1k Global. Any balance or gameplay suggestions should be understood or taken as such.

Project Head and current Owner/Manager of SCTA Project

1

Its only a meme if its Moses.

AI Developer for FAF | https://forum.faforever.com/topic/53/ai-swarm-ai-mod-for-faforever

Developer for LOUD Project | https://discord.gg/DfWXMg9

AI Development FAF Discord | https://discord.gg/ChRfhB3

Apparently also a FAF Developer now!

1

She’s off the rails mate