The Last Thread about RAS SACU Balance

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personal opinion? increase the cost of gate to that of a t3 land fact hq... and remove assisting on gates (maybe even remove the whole sacu preset thing) = Longer time for ras to pay itself back without any actual changes to ras stats

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That will also influence combat sacus 😕

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Not an expert in any respect--what about removing RAS from SACU and putting it in a dedicated unit that can be summoned from a gateway, doesn't have any build power and is more volatile? This removes the turtling under one shield issue and turns a large cluster more into a mini mobile paragon. If it's possible I'd have the explosion of multiple scale by the number of RAS units dying.

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You should just nerf ras into the ground. RAS is too good to make viable. You make it viable, you make it meta simple.

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I think a game has to end somehow, ras should be hella profitable but hella risky to do as well, that is why i am advocating for increasing the dmg and radius of explosion and moving the ras in the place where teleport is so they can not tp in enemy base and go kabom. If they transport it well that is on you, since that is preventable.

-Increase the cost and increase the mass gain up to 15
-Increase dmg and radius of explosion (sufficient+ so one ras can insta kill another ras and cause chain reaction)
-Move ras in the slots where tp is so they cant have both (preventing tp kamikazi)
-Lower down BP of SACU
-RAS preset lowers the hp of SACU to like 5~10k hp (lower would be better me thinks)

And there you go the ras is solved, notice me balance plebs.

In the end, a game has to end so might as well be yolo. Also i like seeing big experimentals being built (mavor, scatus, para...).

Analyze, Adapt, Overcome...

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Can someone of the balance team please elaborate on their position on ras sacus? Honestly nerf cost by factor 2 or get rid of them..

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this was already answered in previous thread on ras scu

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@keyser where do I find said thread?

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They take 11 minutes to pay back their initial mass cost.

If you are having problems with Ras com spam you are either playing a turtle map like DG, or you're not being aggressive, and your opponent would win anyway, because you are on the backfoot and lacking any tactical intiative in that theatre.

Honestly 6500 mass for 11 income, 6500/11 = 640 seconds or roughly 11 minutes.

10 Ras sacu is the same cost as 24 strats. With 24 strats you can strat anything. For 15 Ras sacu you can make 2 Asswashers.
For 40 ras sacu you can make a paragon.

The optimal income if you are using all income on a paragon is about 400 anyway, after which you are actually delaying its completion.

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@Psions said in The Last Thread about RAS SACU Balance:

The optimal income if you are using all income on a paragon is about 400 anyway, after which you are actually delaying its completion.

How do you come up with that number?

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@Psions said in The Last Thread about RAS SACU Balance:

6500/11 = 640 seconds or roughly 11 minutes.

6500/11 = 590

On this note, I want to stress that I very much agree with the call for more moderation on this forum.

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Psions please read the opening statement of this thread

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I found the thead in the old forum.
So currently the approach balance team takes is to nerf their build time and reduce their bp.

This is not dealing with their fundamental problem: the combination of power and mass generation which removes the need to protect either generation in lategame, and their overall currently underpriced value proposition, they are too good for their cost (the little bp nerf doesnt cut it)

Why?

The Yudis will just make a few more hives which undos the change.

I still believe that ras is too powerful of an upgrade and should only be available once on the acu. I think i dont need to explain how powerful it is. The best static basebuilding air bos get acu ras before full t3 mex, thats how efficient it is, and thats not taking into account that its eco that doesnt need to be protected extra.

I propose for ras upgrade to be removed from sacu.

Because it will force people do spend the mass on anything else, and that will always make games more exciting than spending it on defensive ras boys. They are simply put shit for the gameplay experience. They incentivise people to play "meme as hard and still get away" style.

If thats too radical or a change, and people still want to use them, for example for lenghty coop missions as moveable base, or for increased difficulty meme style against noobs, then nerf them by increasing cost by 50%.

Another good idea raised in this thread was to make them only produce power as a choice to get safe power production. But why offer that choice? There isnt any save mass production either, except for the infamously broken ras acu.

I think protection of economy is a key principle that should stay even in lategame and ras sacus weaken that principle in ways not healthy to the game.

Also it would mean an indirect nerf to mindless hive spam which is a bonus.

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@LittleBoyBennis said in The Last Thread about RAS SACU Balance:

This is not dealing with their fundamental problem: the combination of power and mass generation which removes the need to protect either generation in lategame, and their overall currently underpriced value proposition, they are too good for their cost (the little bp nerf doesnt cut it)

Would introducing diminishing returns mechanic make this viable?
Say first (5) SACUs are 100%, next (1) 125%, next 150%, etc cost? The 10th SACU would be 225% more (15k mass) which would be very cost prohibitive. Lore wise, that also makes sense as it's supposedly a human in each one...

What of the Quantum gate? If SACUs are nerfed, kinda makes them useless. I saw one mod YEARS ago that turned them into Nydus Canal like structures or very rapid T3 factories... ...just saying if nerfed too much- what's the point of the QG?

Only 1100, sooo just some noob thoughts. Also...youtube vid of awesome gate mechanic

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What if we made RAS a toggleable ability, like Selen cloak? It does produce eco, but disables itself in the process, and if you want to use it for anything else you (temporarily) lose the income.

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You could just as easily be in the middle ground and nerf BT of QG and Nerf RAS Income.

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Bt nerf is inconsequential because by the time you have enough mass for ras sacu spam you have enough mass to make a few more hives or engis or QGs anyway. If you nerf nerf their bt by 100 % you just need to spend another 1100 mass to make another qg. Not a big thing.

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@LittleBoyBennis if you remove the ability to assist QGs and increase the price to that of a land factory hq, it will take significantly more time for ras acu to pay itself off...

that way you wont have 50 ras walking around in a few minute, one way of nerfing them without having to change any stats besides the QG cost and maybe even the its build time...

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@Marked_One said in The Last Thread about RAS SACU Balance:

@LittleBoyBennis if you remove the ability to assist QGs and increase the price to that of a land factory hq, it will take significantly more time for ras acu to pay itself off...

that way you wont have 50 ras walking around in a few minute, one way of nerfing them without having to change any stats besides the QG cost and maybe even the its build time...

It will just make building a bunch of massfabs around 3-4 gates make more sence, its kinda optimal anyway, just takes more space.
Spending all mass on assisting with excess build power is faster and more space efficient, but less optimal.
Building a bunch of mass fabs with spare mass pays for itself in 200 seconds vs 650 for QC. But not space efficient. But something like 'mass-fabs' meta is probably healthier, than 'mass ras sacus'.

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Just have to point out that removing the ability to assist quantum gateways is an extremely stupid idea. Flux economy and controlling the amount of buildpower you use on something is the bedrock mechanic which the entire game is built on. Excluding launchers, which have some weird behavior when mass stalling that I think is stupid, everything obeys the elegant and simple rules of mass, energy, and buildtime. You cannot just say that this one type of factory is impossible to assist because you don't like the units it produces or because of quantum magic, it would be an unforgivable sin going against the main design principle of the game.

If you want assistance to have less of an impact on quantum gateways you just increase the buildpower of the gateway and increase the buildtime of the SCU so that the external buildpower has less of an effect. Exactly the same thing that was already done with nuke launchers.