@moses_the_red said in Points of Imbalance.:
You neglect to mention that it was a 1/19th cost increase that the ML received. It now takes 10 seconds more mass production to build if you're rushing it. Its a completely negligible nerf.
Yeah, T3 mobile arty did get a nerf... not in that patch, the actually buffed mobile arty in that patch... but much later it got a nerf. Doesn't matter though as the issue is that T4 is just better in certain circumstances. So much better that people don't bother to build significant T3 land assault bots.
The point was that you claimed it was a sloppy patch that nerfed T3 land without making any meaningful change to anything else. And 1k mass is not negligible. It's a mass cost increase on top of a build-time increase on top of the fact that equal mass in T3 already stomps it anyways.
Ythotha got a cost increase and had its dps shifted so if can't one shot Percies/Bricks. That's not to say these changes put them back in line with old balance, that wasn't the point. T4 IS stronger now once it gets up, that's intentional. T4s are no longer a cheese strategy but a proper unit. The video explains it better, but to say it was a sloppy patch and that there wasn't any concern or that people didn't notice changes for T3/T4 balance is just wrong.
Looks to me like the Ythota just got nerfed in general, but the nerfs were fairly slight.
Look, here's the issue with your "cheese strategy" claim. Gyle and other casters actually recorded lots of games from pre-2018 and made them publicly available. When I got through those games, I see top tier players spamming lots of T4 units. They weren't a cheese strategy, but they weren't T3 land either.
The reason people built them both before and after the nerf is because they had other advantages that T3 land didn't have, not because they actually won an equal fight vs T3 land. If people built them solely to win an even fight vs t3 bots then we wouldn't see many T4's at all before the nerf, as T3 land was much more powerful then.
Making them a "proper unit" means that they're stepping on the role of T3 land - which I think is a terrible way to deal with them - but if everyone's dead set on making them a normal unit rather than a suckerpunch (which isn't necessarily cheese) then for god's sake, drastically increase their build times. Right now they're no less cheesey when rushed than they ever were, but in addition to being a cheesy rush unit they're also mass competitive with T3 land assault bots which causes them to replace T3 assault bots in some situations.
You still have not shown how T4s are now mass competitive with assault bots. They certainly aren't good enough to rush and are much harder to get in the blink of an eye with the change to reclaim time and build time.
Even with the changes, T3 land still beats T4 mass for mass with a good formation, especially with shields.
If its rushed, you aren't going to have the T3 land to beat it. If its not rushed they'll have T3 land too. Beyond that T4 assault bots don't need to beat T3 land to be relevant. They have other major advantages.
You can't "rush" 26000 mass. If a T4 is rushed, it means giving up much of the map and then having to retake it with one T4 and whatever you can make after. Even then you're still going to lose. Experimental buildtime was massively increased while T3 assault bot buildtime was decreased. It is not hard to build up an equal fighting force of T3, especially when 10k mass in T3 can already start winning map control while 10k mass in an experimental can't do anything.
"If it's not rushed they'll have T3 land too" which means that T3 land is actively fighting on both sides leaving a lot of reclaim, and the person who starts a 26000 mass investment is going to be at a serious disadvantage in trying to get any of that mass until the exp is out. In most cases that means being out-ecoed and put at a severe disadvantage. By the time the T4 shows up most of the reclaim will be gone. Yes, T3 land Synergizes well with a T4, but it has to more than makeup for the ground you lose to push out an experimental in the T3 stage.
EXPs outshine T3 land in the late t3 stage where you can get them up without creating a noticeable enough difference to lose too much ground, and where concentrated dps/hp is more important than efficiency. At some point and in some situations it's just more sensible to use T4 over T3, this was true before the patch and is true after. It doesn't mean stepping on the roles of another unit. There are plenty of times where it is a much better idea to make bricks than a monkey, or to make harbs over a GC.
And yeah you can probably keep a few T3 mobile arty alive in your base, you'll just lose the rest of the map, all the reclaim and mexes, ect. You don't have to actually break into the opponent's base with T3, if you push them back enough they're basically crippled without expansions even if the experimental does get up.
In a lot of cases you can just run a T4 assault bot by a mass of bricks or percies, and if you build enough splash units you'll be just fine when the assault bots eventually make it to your base. Your opponent will have substantially less time to react however.
If the map is really that open that you can circle a T4 around T3 land then it's either a really open expansion map where T3 land/air excels or a 20k turtle map. Besides which you can reposition T3 land fairly quickly and safely with transports. There's no way that a T4 can realistically avoid having to fight T3 land just by trying to go around it.
And that's not considering that while your opponent makes T4 you can win much of the map with T3, if not kill his whole base. Even when the T4 gets out it's an uphill battle to retake the map since you only have one experimental that can only be in one place.
You say this, and this is great in theory, but if you read through more of this thread you'll find that I've linked several replays where pro players are indeed building token amounts of T3 land and then spamming T4 bots.
It isn't theory. It's a basic fact that you can't sink 26000 mass into a unit at the early t3 stage and not be prepared to give up a substantial part of the map. If YOU read through the thread you'll see one of the players in the game himself as well as others directly replying to your point, and explaining why they chose to team-build a megalith rather than making bricks.
Jesus man, nerfing OC means that rushed T4 bots are even more powerful... not less.
If you're trying to get up an exp on minimal t3 land then the main thing you have to fend off T3 land is your com. Outside of ML vs ACU + shields (which ACU still wins), ACU does slightly worse vs T4 now, but using your Com to kill a GC walking in was already a last resort option and there's still a much better choice (making T3 land, which wins mass for mass). What does matter is the increased cost to protect your 20k or 26k investment while it's being built.
And people don't generally talk about post nerf units vs pre-nerf units because the two will never meet.
Yeah, but that's an issue, because its one of the simplest objective ways to determine how extreme a set of proposed changes are. If you test them and find that you've double the effectiveness of a unit with your changes that might be enough to convince you that what your doing might have impacts beyond what you intend.
By your own logic though it's completely pointless. Did you need to actually test new brick vs old brick to form your opinions on T3 balance? Is it not enough to compare old brick vs exp with new brick vs exp? Testing something like this incurs a lot of time and organizational cost for something with arguably little benefit.