Why do subs have vision?

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For the purpose of greater unit diversity, buff sub sonar and remove sub vision completely.

Discuss.

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being realistic =/= good game design idea

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Maybe reduce vision, but no vision means you wouldn't know what you're torpedoing, or even if it is a deception.

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Yeah, there would have to be a method of identifying sonar signatures if the vision was removed.

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My preferred mode of playing is 3v3 - 6v6 PVP games, I'm 900~1k rated.

Idk, I wouldn't throw this one out of the window just like that.
Subs struggling with jammers makes 100% sense - jammers are kind of useless most of the game anyways in my experience, this would give them some usability (also only available for UEF).
Mid and Late game you have proper intel infrastructure or can spit out a quick scout/spy plane to check things out.
They can also be used to thwart damage from 'passive combat' (units being held back but still being in firing range, say in Setons navy game), or slightly increase survivability of a pack of frontline/infiltration units (though this is probably mostly used by lower rated players - like me).

In naval-enabled maps on the medium and smaller side, a single sub can shut down your naval initiation with a bit of micro management, and the submarine-less player is forced to try a reclaim suicide run with engies (if using the ACU is not an option), build T1 torp launcher, or try to sneakily build another naval yard and hope he won't be detected. But if you are paying any kind of attention or god forbid even actively trying to prevent your enemy from entering the naval theater, you can stop all of those attempts with a single sub (and you'll probably have reinforcements following behind).

Also, it would kind of force players to diversify their navy build, instead of spamming T2/T3 subs mid or late game, which also forces T2/T3 sub response by the defender if the air game is not in his favor to rely on torp bombers.

So having subs be dependent on other sources of intel early game like frigates or scouts, I think it could work well - mid and late game the player will sort of be forced to diversify his unit composition in order to have the subs be useful.

Definitely have surfaced subs have the current 'full' vision radius, but none when submerged, thus forcing the player to surface it and expose it to danger (will also help newer players learn that subs have guns mounted that do extra DPS when surfaced, which is great to dispatch engies or naval yards faster).

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@stlng Buffing cybran T2 subs sounds like a great idea

@fichom said in Why do subs have vision?:

n naval-enabled maps on the medium and smaller side, a single sub can shut down your naval initiation with a bit of micro management, and the submarine-less player is forced to try a reclaim suicide run with engies (if using the ACU is not an option), build T1 torp launcher, or try to sneakily build another naval yard and hope he won't be detected.

You could just build a T1 bomber and ground fire it or just use a torp bomber.
Also having a single frigate will kill their navy production faster, than their sub can kill yours and you can then kill of some eco at the shore, while the sub sits around and tries to kill your frig for like a minute.

@fichom said in Why do subs have vision?:

Also, it would kind of force players to diversify their navy build, instead of spamming T2/T3 subs mid or late game, which also forces T2/T3 sub response by the defender if the air game is not in his favor to rely on torp bombers.

Who is actually spamming Subs late game and winning anything?
I mean Sera T3 Subs are kind of good i guess, but even they can be ground fired by anything with some aoe.
also aside from winning navy subs have no use. So once you destroyed your opponents navy you have dead mass sitting around, while frigates, destros or battleships can wreak havoc on anything remotely close to shore.

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Since subs can be easily and mass efficiently killed by suiciding torpedo bombers into them (where the torp bomber just needs to fire once to trade well) I dont think subs should be nerfed by reducing their vision, so it'd only work if combined with other changes that made subs stronger (e.g. dps or health boost), but such changes would need more careful consideration than a 1 line statement.

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https://forum.faforever.com/topic/2373/ai-development-guide-and-m27ai-v55-devlog

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I meant to post this in the general discussion area since it was supposed to be more of a discussion than a detailed balance suggestion.

I think there is some room in the current sub functionally for diversity.

Increased sonar range, reduced vision while submerged, and sonar stealth while not moving are some ideas.

I'd like to see nuke subs a little more often. Perhaps sonar stealth while immobile could help with that.

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I believe it would be intresting to buff submarines and erase their vision leaving only sonar