I was saying that stuff in response to what you said... You keep being confused, so I keep trying to explain it more simply... it is not a hard concept... Things get balanced in comparison to other things. So, for example, how a t1 bomber performs per cost is relevant to balancing how a jester performs per cost. You argued about how good/bad t1 bombers are compared to jesters, basically saying that t1 bombers aren't great because they do less than their hypothetical damage if you don't micro them. I explained that even if t1 bombers do significantly less than their hypothetical firing rate, they are still quite good. I also explained that the capabilities of units, such as t1 bombers or auroras, often get factored in with FAF's balancing. So, when balancing, for example, a jester compared to a t1 bomber, we should theoretically factor in micro potential like we would when balancing, for example, a striker vs an aurora. Things like T1 bombers and auroras can relatively often achieve a very cost-efficient amount of damage with good micro. Even if t1 bombers don't normally get micro'ed to their full potential, they do often get used to a decent portion of that potential, especially early on in pro games. Thereby, they theoretically should be/are balanced with some expected level of micro'ing in mind on average, especially early on in pro games. With that logic, t1 bombers are quite good, as are t1 tanks, but jesters are notably worse per cost, by comparison, on average.
Make Jesters Cost Less Mass
@penguin_ So lets not compare t1 bombers to jesters as it is not fair to compare the two, fair enough, then why do we care how often people use jesters compared to bombers. Its like mercys, they need a nerf but are not used in very many high level games cus they are niche. Same could be said of beetles tho those are not in need of a nerf afaik. They are a niche, faction specific unit that serves its own specific purpose and does it well. Anyway ive said my opinion.
I have to agree with Penguin.
I never see Jesters used and I myself never use them because they are almost never worth it. If boosting the dps/mass is out of the question then maybe another method of making it more usable? What if the cost is reduced along with the maximum HP as well. That way it can be countered easier by T1 mobile AA. The whole point of niche units is to give different factions some flair. But if they are almost never used they might just as well be removed.
Using it as a defensive unit doesn't make sense because a t1 bomber is much more effective in that role. Bombers do area damage, cost less, and build faster. If the enemy player you're trying to defend against mixes some AA into their army then bombers will be much better because they will get at least one bomb off dealing damage to many targets where the Jester won't be able to deal nearly as much. If the player doesn't send AA the bomber would still be better because of the area damage and multiple passes.
For sniping early mexes the Jester is also inefficient. You can build about 5 T1 mexes for the price of one Jester. the reclaim from the destroyed Jesters alone will make up for the damage they deal.
The only concern I can understand thus far is the Comm snipes. However I constantly see people talk about wanting to punish players for poor/ lack of scouting. If the same mentality is applied then players should punished for poor AA defense as well. But I believe my original solution might still help. Cheaper Jesters with less HP will be easier to counter so it might balance out the Comm sniping potential.
Just my two cents
Cheaper Jesters with less HP will be easier to counter so it might balance out the Comm sniping potential.
Not sure if you are aware but that's exactly what happened to them in a previous patch: http://patchnotes.faforever.com/3718.html
Mass cost: 200 → 170
Energy cost: 5000 → 4250
Build time: 1000 → 850
Health: 525 → 350
MaxSpeed: 12 → 9
Damage: 16 → 15
@archsimkat I was not aware. I haven't been following the patch notes as well as I should have. But does it invalidate my arguments? It is still underused.
The balance team has spoken. You would have much more experience using and balancing the Jester than I do so I will defer to your judgement
Jesters fulfill a particular niche of a defensive and reliable T1 air unit. They can also be used for raiding but due to their low hp they are pretty easy to snipe and die to T1 MAA quickly, that is by design. You can't compare its DPS/mass cost to the bomber's because A) The DPS of a bomber is greatly exaggerated and no, when it's min 4 and you are dealing with some raids nobody is going to micro their bombers. B) Bombers tend to miss a lot (but they deal AoE so they are better vs armies). Basically, Jester is designed to be a defensive unit that kills single/small groups of units on your side of the map with its secondary purpose being sniping engies/raiding mexes. Bombers are better on the offensive (killing engies) and attacking armies.
Both units have different roles and are better at them than their counterparts.
I only see mass Jesters made for com snipes in teamgames and maybe one or two are made for raiding in 1v1 games (and they usually are just a nuisance)
They're definitely not a very strong unit. If that's by design then okay, but they are pretty mediocre as stands
put the xbox units in the game pls u_u
What about a small HP buff from 350hp to 400hp? It makes them slightly better as a defensive unit for if the enemy has a very small number of MAA (compared with a bomber), without making their com snipe abilities that much better (compared to a dps or mass cost buff).
It'd also still keep them weaker than ghetto gunships which I think is a good thing since ghetto gunships require a lot more apm (and 2 factories dedicated to getting the 1 unit) to build.
M27AI developer; Devlog and more general AI development guide:
How about let people who actually use them and know how and when to use them to make the decision.
Ras Boi's save lives.
When people try to raid mexes they typically send more than 170 mass at them. You can't justify a raid only on mass of meces killed but by time and apm to replace said mexes
Ever seen a zlo bomber? I wonder how well a zlo jester would work out in comparison.
Mybe instead of changing it's combat stats just reduce it's building time? 850 look quite a lot
850 ain't that much, it's basically the same as t1 bomber when you factor in the costs.
T1 bomber is 500
For a "Defensive answer", it take a long time to get out and help you defend
Bomber - 90/2.05k 500bt
Jester - 170/4.25k 850bt
Jester also kills shit way faster than bomber ever will unless you are capable of babysitting it all the time.
My biggest gripe with it is how sluggish it moves. The speed is fine, but it changes direction slower than a t2 gunship. I made a proposal a while back to increase its acceleration for better micro since, you know, its supposed to be small and nimble.