Make Jesters Cost Less Mass

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Yes, @SpikeyNoob, I read your post; I didn't address it since I was satisfied with Nex's response to it, which basically explained that T1 units often have more DPS/mass than their higher tech counterparts and gave example maths to support that point. Just compare the DPS/mass of a strat vs a T1 bomber...

Compared to a jester, a T2 cybran gunship has ~150% the health/mass, 110% max range, 120% max speed, and does AOE (3 damage radius vs 0).

FAF often balances things with their micro potential in mind btw.... cough auroras cough

So, I do think it would be quite reasonable to buff a jester's DPS/mass.

In addition to observing that pros don't use jesters much compared to T1 bombers, I have observed that when lower-skilled players invest in making jesters, they are generally more likely to lose than if they invest the equivalent amount of mass in T1 bombers (or something else) instead.

PS: I am not opposed to alternative methods of buffing the jester (ie: giving it a speed buff). I just would like it to be more viable/worthwhile than it is now.

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Just look at the frequency with which pros use jesters compared to the frequency with which they use cybran T1 bombers

It would not be desirable for cybran t1 gunships to be used more than cybran t1 bombers - it is a faction specific unit so it should be more niche.

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@ftxcommando It totally does not need a buff, it serves it function as u described just fine. I would be a little more open to nerfing dps and buffing speed. Though it would prob better server balance to just nerf the dps slightly and leave everything else the way it is.

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@penguin_ said in Make Jesters Cost Less Mass:

FAF often balances things with their micro potential in mind btw.... cough auroras cough

So, I do think it would be quite reasonable to buff a jester's DPS/mass.

What is ur point? Bombers micro requirements lowers their overall effectiveness. This means that the jesters lower dps means much less since bombers cannot use much of their potential. Seems like the above quote supports my POV rather than urs 😕

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https://replay.faforever.com/17326810
Yudi does first jester vs tagada and crushes. This would never have worked with a bomber since tagada gets an AA out. The jester is able to kill the aa where a bomber would just die. It is able to kill every engi and delay more being made via killing the aa,. Hows that for top level players using it.

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It would not be desirable for cybran t1 gunships to be used more than cybran t1 bombers - it is a faction specific unit so it should be more niche.

I was not suggesting cybran t1 gunships be buffed to the point that they would be used more than cybran t1 bombers. I would be content with jesters being buffed to a level in which they get used even like 20% as much as cybran t1 bombers do. For perspective, I think I currently see something very roughly in the ballpark of like a 20 or 30 to 1 cybran t1 bomber to cybran t1 gunship ratio on average by ~1.4k+ players.

@SpikeyNoob I meant that FAF often balances things with their micro'ed capabilities in mind. Like, if you just charge auroras in against their mass equivalent in strikers, they will generally lose by a large margin, as they are balanced with their potential to be micro'ed (ie: for kiting) in mind. If that micro potential was not factored in, they would presumably have more health...

I'm not saying that jesters are unusable at the pro level, and I'm not saying that they can't be abused. Just imagine what someone with perfect aurora micro could do. I'm saying that I normally see pros using cybran t1 bombers much more than I see them using jesters, by a very large margin. Also note that my OP did state that it may be worth increasing the build time cost in combination with decreasing the mass cost, to not make an early jester rush too strong.

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@penguin_ said in Make Jesters Cost Less Mass:

@SpikeyNoob I meant that FAF often balances things with their micro'ed capabilities in mind. Like, if you just charge auroras in against their mass equivalent in strikers, they will generally lose by a large margin, as they are balanced with their potential to be micro'ed (ie: for kiting) in mind. If that micro potential was not factored in, they would presumably have more health...

U are making no sense, u are explaining this concept like everyone reading this does not already understand it. In order to make an argument u must explain correlation between the concept of micro impacting balance and the idea of buffing jesters.

FAF often balances things with their micro potential in mind btw.... cough auroras cough

There u are again mentioning the issue of micro potential (which as i said we understand) without any connection to the jesters. Maybe u have the idea in ur head and simply are not expressing it, if not u are just bringing up concepts that have no connection to your argument.

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@SpikeyNoob
I was saying that stuff in response to what you said... You keep being confused, so I keep trying to explain it more simply... it is not a hard concept... Things get balanced in comparison to other things. So, for example, how a t1 bomber performs per cost is relevant to balancing how a jester performs per cost. You argued about how good/bad t1 bombers are compared to jesters, basically saying that t1 bombers aren't great because they do less than their hypothetical damage if you don't micro them. I explained that even if t1 bombers do significantly less than their hypothetical firing rate, they are still quite good. I also explained that the capabilities of units, such as t1 bombers or auroras, often get factored in with FAF's balancing. So, when balancing, for example, a jester compared to a t1 bomber, we should theoretically factor in micro potential like we would when balancing, for example, a striker vs an aurora. Things like T1 bombers and auroras can relatively often achieve a very cost-efficient amount of damage with good micro. Even if t1 bombers don't normally get micro'ed to their full potential, they do often get used to a decent portion of that potential, especially early on in pro games. Thereby, they theoretically should be/are balanced with some expected level of micro'ing in mind on average, especially early on in pro games. With that logic, t1 bombers are quite good, as are t1 tanks, but jesters are notably worse per cost, by comparison, on average.

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@penguin_ So lets not compare t1 bombers to jesters as it is not fair to compare the two, fair enough, then why do we care how often people use jesters compared to bombers. Its like mercys, they need a nerf but are not used in very many high level games cus they are niche. Same could be said of beetles tho those are not in need of a nerf afaik. They are a niche, faction specific unit that serves its own specific purpose and does it well. Anyway ive said my opinion.

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I have to agree with Penguin.

I never see Jesters used and I myself never use them because they are almost never worth it. If boosting the dps/mass is out of the question then maybe another method of making it more usable? What if the cost is reduced along with the maximum HP as well. That way it can be countered easier by T1 mobile AA. The whole point of niche units is to give different factions some flair. But if they are almost never used they might just as well be removed.

Using it as a defensive unit doesn't make sense because a t1 bomber is much more effective in that role. Bombers do area damage, cost less, and build faster. If the enemy player you're trying to defend against mixes some AA into their army then bombers will be much better because they will get at least one bomb off dealing damage to many targets where the Jester won't be able to deal nearly as much. If the player doesn't send AA the bomber would still be better because of the area damage and multiple passes.

For sniping early mexes the Jester is also inefficient. You can build about 5 T1 mexes for the price of one Jester. the reclaim from the destroyed Jesters alone will make up for the damage they deal.

The only concern I can understand thus far is the Comm snipes. However I constantly see people talk about wanting to punish players for poor/ lack of scouting. If the same mentality is applied then players should punished for poor AA defense as well. But I believe my original solution might still help. Cheaper Jesters with less HP will be easier to counter so it might balance out the Comm sniping potential.

Just my two cents

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Cheaper Jesters with less HP will be easier to counter so it might balance out the Comm sniping potential.

Not sure if you are aware but that's exactly what happened to them in a previous patch: http://patchnotes.faforever.com/3718.html

Mass cost: 200 → 170
Energy cost: 5000 → 4250
Build time: 1000 → 850
Health: 525 → 350
MaxSpeed: 12 → 9
Damage: 16 → 15

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@archsimkat I was not aware. I haven't been following the patch notes as well as I should have. But does it invalidate my arguments? It is still underused.

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Maybe look at more than just 2 numbers out of context

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The balance team has spoken. You would have much more experience using and balancing the Jester than I do so I will defer to your judgement

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Wasn't a response to you btw, but to the openings post

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Jesters fulfill a particular niche of a defensive and reliable T1 air unit. They can also be used for raiding but due to their low hp they are pretty easy to snipe and die to T1 MAA quickly, that is by design. You can't compare its DPS/mass cost to the bomber's because A) The DPS of a bomber is greatly exaggerated and no, when it's min 4 and you are dealing with some raids nobody is going to micro their bombers. B) Bombers tend to miss a lot (but they deal AoE so they are better vs armies). Basically, Jester is designed to be a defensive unit that kills single/small groups of units on your side of the map with its secondary purpose being sniping engies/raiding mexes. Bombers are better on the offensive (killing engies) and attacking armies.
Both units have different roles and are better at them than their counterparts.

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I only see mass Jesters made for com snipes in teamgames and maybe one or two are made for raiding in 1v1 games (and they usually are just a nuisance)

They're definitely not a very strong unit. If that's by design then okay, but they are pretty mediocre as stands

put the xbox units in the game pls u_u

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What about a small HP buff from 350hp to 400hp? It makes them slightly better as a defensive unit for if the enemy has a very small number of MAA (compared with a bomber), without making their com snipe abilities that much better (compared to a dps or mass cost buff).
It'd also still keep them weaker than ghetto gunships which I think is a good thing since ghetto gunships require a lot more apm (and 2 factories dedicated to getting the 1 unit) to build.

M27AI developer; Devlog and more general AI development guide:
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/2373/ai-development-guide-and-m27ai-v44-devlog

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How about let people who actually use them and know how and when to use them to make the decision.

Ras Boi's save lives.

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When people try to raid mexes they typically send more than 170 mass at them. You can't justify a raid only on mass of meces killed but by time and apm to replace said mexes

Ever seen a zlo bomber? I wonder how well a zlo jester would work out in comparison.