M&M Map Vault Plans for Fall 2020 and On

I look at recently posted to see if there's anything interesting. The fact that the only criteria I can search by are meta metrics (Name, creator name, number of games etc) and almost useless mesa knowledge (number of players and Size withstanding). Rather than anything about the map itself doesn't help me to find maps that I would find enjoyable, a lack of measured comparison makes finding maps that would otherwise be similar or enjoyable very difficult and throwing a blanket over it and pretending its not there doesn't help.

Curtailing the ability to upload doesn't either as most people are not going to go through the work of filling out an application for a game they play in their free time. Especially if they have to wait a day or two to be approved or the reviewer denies their map for personal taste reasons (people will inevitably be subjective afterall). It may instead be better to make the application opt in to gain a mapper/modder tag that is attached to any maps you make. (This shows that you have consistently made quality maps)

You can still upload a map under my plan...

@Morax said in M&M Map Vault Plans for Fall 2020 and On:

My campaign promise couldn't be met with regards to the vault because too many people abuse the rules.

That's just not true. You could absolutely just have 2 vaults or 2 lists. If too many people abuse the rules, then have 1 vault/list be either less regulated or unregulated.

You guys are overthinking how many maps will "disappear from the vault."

I am NOT nuking the map vault, I am simply disallowing showing maps that are "learning process."

Based on everything you've said in the literally thousands of your messages that I've read from recent years, I believe I have a pretty good idea of your intentions, and I believe you plan to exclude a very large portion of newly created maps from your whitelist.
Saying that you are "simply disallowing showing maps that are 'learning process.'" doesn't change this, as you consider a huge quantity of people (maybe even the majority) who have ever made a map for FA/FAF to still be in the "learning process" by your standards.

@Morax said in M&M Map Vault Plans for Fall 2020 and On:

Can you have these "many others" post here and express their concerns, an alternate idea?

Most people still refuse to use the forums. If you want to do a balanced in-client pop-up poll for every FAF player that's online, I believe that got a decent amount of responses that were more representative of the community when it was done previously.
But really, if you want proof that many people do look at the recently made maps list, just look at the number of games that are hosted by people on maps that they have never played that they have downloaded from the vault. Heck, I've heard that like half of the games played on FAF are singleplayer anyway, often played by people who basically never play multiplayer. I've looked extensively over a decent number of new maps' game history over the past few months, and many people are obviously downloading them from the recently made maps list on the vault, and some of those new maps get hundreds of plays within their first few months.

@Morax said in M&M Map Vault Plans for Fall 2020 and On:

You can still upload a map under my plan...

Being able to upload a map to a vault where almost no one will see it because it's not easily enough accessible/discoverable is better than nothing, but it's much, much worse for getting maps out there than being able to upload it to somewhere where everyone can easily enough see it if they're looking for new maps to play.
Doing the 2 vaults or 2 lists idea would resolve this issue.

i don't think handing out good boy badges will stop the flow of crap into the vault

delivering quality content in an easily accessible place sounds like the plan 2 vaults overly complicates things and is far from ideal

I just noticed my paragraph split in half at some point, yeesh. But I didn't say you can't upload with your system I'm saying that it will keep people from wanting to even try. I've uploaded only 1 map onto the vault and that's because making good maps take time (it's not easy) but if I find out I have to make 3 and then send them in for a CHANCE to get uploading privileges is pretty ludicrous and would dissuade most people from even attempting to make maps. Quote below for emphasis.

@Morax said in M&M Map Vault Plans for Fall 2020 and On:

How to be given access to the vault?

Good question, and there will be an application process made. I am thinking a sample of 3 maps uploaded to the vault with replays that the M&M team can review to see it meets the rules.

After that, the author will be given unlimited access, so long as they keep abiding to the rules of the vault.

@MadMax said in M&M Map Vault Plans for Fall 2020 and On:

i don't think handing out good boy badges will stop the flow of crap into the vault

It's wont stop people from uploading but it does highlight good uploading criteria and makes finding maps that are uploaded by vetted skill mappers easier. Most people don't know who makes the map they're playing on unless there's a text popup on screen. This will at a minimum give them a way to actively search the vault with ease.

@MadMax said in M&M Map Vault Plans for Fall 2020 and On:

delivering quality content in an easily accessible place sounds like the plan 2 vaults overly complicates things and is far from ideal

2 lists for this would be pretty easy to implement and is not complicated; there are already at least 4 public map lists on the vault. Doing the 2 lists idea would be better than doing just a whitelist.
Comparatively, doing 2 vaults would potentially be even better, and Morax's old post said that he was certain that the java client could show the 2 vaults idea easily.
So, either the 2 lists or 2 vaults idea should be done. Either would be a great step in the right direction.

Penguin, I am not going to run through why I disagree with you here again and again like the past year.

If people don't want to voice their opinions where it has been voiced for years, then it's their fault. Again, you are claiming "most people don't want to use the forums" but I don't see this in discord or other sources.

having one vault where anything goes is pointless there would still need to be a minimum of rules and then it would need to be policed so how is that any better than what we have now ?

Can we just have a vault for shitters and then a vault tailored for quality maps/approved authors?

Literally elitism, came on the forum for the first time just to say I disagree.

@MadMax said in M&M Map Vault Plans for Fall 2020 and On:

having one vault where anything goes is pointless there would still need to be a minimum of rules and then it would need to be policed so how is that any better than what we have now ?

My proposal for 2 lists doesn't have/allow any more or less content on the vault than Morax's proposed whitelist system does. The difference is in the accessibility to the non-whitelisted content. I want new non-whitelisted maps to be in an easily accessible list; Morax doesn't.

Having new non-whitelisted maps available in an easily accessible list is better for the many, many players who like to play on maps that won't be on Morax's whitelist.

@Morax said in M&M Map Vault Plans for Fall 2020 and On:

If people don't want to voice their opinions where it has been voiced for years, then it's their fault. Again, you are claiming "most people don't want to use the forums" but I don't see this in discord or other sources.

Ignoring the situation because many people who don't agree with you don't voice their opinions where you see/understand them doesn't make their opinions less important or nonexistent. You want proof that people want to play maps that won't be on your whitelist? Look no further than the bazillion astro crater variants (that I assume will never be on your whitelist) that pop up all the time and get a remarkable amount of games collectively. Thousands of people like those maps and want to find more maps like that. They don't have to say so to you for you to realize that. The data speaks for itself there. And that is just one example..... Honestly, open your eyes and realize that a lot of people like things that you don't like and want to play on maps that you don't like, because it's fun for them to do those things and play on those maps.

Morax, I'd hate to be a hater but imagine making a "Good Map List" what type of biased shit is this. This entire list will be your opinion. You can't deny that it won't be biased everything you decide will always be biased that's how humans work. This shitters list for maps and this "Good quality maps" is completely opinion-based. People think Astro Crater is a genius map, that's their opinion.

This accessibility thing blows my mind. I thought you were making good decisions; Morax, but it seems that you fail to realize that this is community ran and you ignoring the community will never help you. You realize that I, myself deal with the community on a daily. You seem like you haven't realized what your job is yet. It's not to be the police but its to be a voice for the community and what they want. Its never a solo job. Your acting like your opinion matters over everyone else's and that's a foolish way of thinking. I understood your enforcing of certain rules to enforce some kind of "Standard Quality" in the vote, but I see you couldn't handle that so your last option is to good full Stalin and great purge the map vote and only allow certain people. Who will suck your toes to be on that white list?

Morax you just never listen to anyone I feel but a certain selection of people and shit you don't even listen to them. Everyone can tell its 100% what YOU want.

@Cascade said in M&M Map Vault Plans for Fall 2020 and On:

Can we just have a vault for shitters and then a vault tailored for quality maps/approved authors?

Why would we allow people to be a "shitter?"

Because they have opinions like it or not. Astro is a "shit" map as far as I'm concerned but there are people who play it 20+ times a day, im pretty sure they like the map.

@Morax Because this is a small community and losing people due to elitist attitude will make it smaller. I know it may not be apparent among the ESL community but Russians LOVE their shitty maps, and I know that a huge source of new faf players come from the community that Yuri built on casting shit maps. I'd argue that the astro/gap community is larger than the rest of the faf community combined. Do we want to lose that player base because we personally don't agree with it?

Okay then vote me out when the election comes up. Noted.

Duly noted

I don't understand why you guys think this = deleted maps. the maps will still be there and can be played. no map is ever going to get removed, it can be found in the vault, and you can host whatever you like.

The Russian community will not lose their gap/astro - make sense?

@Morax said in M&M Map Vault Plans for Fall 2020 and On:

I don't understand why you guys think this = deleted maps. the maps will still be there and can be played. no map is ever going to get removed, it can be found in the vault, and you can host whatever you like.

The Russian community will not lose their gap/astro - make sense?

They will lose accessibility and awareness for many new gap/astro type maps, as well as for many other new maps that won't be on your whitelist, though:

@Emperor_Penguin said in M&M Map Vault Plans for Fall 2020 and On:

Being able to upload a map to a vault where almost no one will see it because it's not easily enough accessible/discoverable is better than nothing, but it's much, much worse for getting maps out there than being able to upload it to somewhere where everyone can easily enough see it if they're looking for new maps to play.
Doing the 2 vaults or 2 lists idea would resolve this issue.