M&M Map Vault Plans for Fall 2020 and On

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Popular does not equal good, Moses. Sorry.

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@moses_the_red said in M&M Map Vault Plans for Fall 2020 and On:

are more difficult to make from a map design perspective

This implies that teamgame maps have the same level of depth per slot as a typical ladder map, which is blatantly false. Teamgame map layouts tend to only have one linear path from base to base with no alternate routes, alternate halfmaps or "map splits", no raiding locations, barely any contestable areas including plateaus or islands, so on and so forth. Many teamgame maps are just a base, mexes that are not the core mass, flat nothingness, and then the enemy base. This includes the maps you make.

I don't think adding another section to be filled with the exact same maps on the vault tab should be added, no matter how much hope you have of the map you made and then constantly host appearing there. It doesn't solve any issue FAF has, and doesnt give anything new either.

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@Morax said in M&M Map Vault Plans for Fall 2020 and On:

WE ARE MOVING TO A WHITELIST VAULT SYSTEM

What this means:

People can still upload to the vault, but there will be no "showroom" when users go to the vault section in the client.

If anyone has any strong feelings about this, please state so, and present some damn good evidence if you think what I stated here is not the case.

Morax, there are merits to making the whitelist "showroom" that you describe, and I think making an easily accessible and easily discoverable list of good new maps like that could help resolve many of the issues you mentioned in your post.
However, there should still be some easy enough way to find all recently made maps in one location for those who want to be able to view them and potentially play on some of them.

I read the totality of this forum (as well as many previous discussions on mapping, new player experience, vault regulation, etc), and there are very clearly strong differences of preference among different parts of the FAF community.
As much as you, FTX, and others, may want to disregard thousands upon thousands of Gap players, Astro players, etc, they collectively make up massive parts of this community (if not the majority!). And while the logic that FTX gives for the 99999999th time does explain some of those players, no matter how you spin it, there are still very large quantities of players who prefer mapping styles that will never be on your "whitelist". Those players should be able to view a list of all recently made maps somewhere.

One way to do this would be to make your regulated whitelist vault showroom, and have it featured near the top of the page, and put the (unregulated or less regulated) list of all recently made maps somewhere near the bottom of the page, with small letters and a note on how the maps may be bad (if you like : P).

Using this system will still make it easy for new players to find "good new maps" by your standards, while also allowing those with differing/contrasting map preferences to find the new maps they like.
And you won't need to be a "vault policeman" with this system either, as you can just give this list of maps as much or as little attention as you would give them anyway (regardless of if they were in a list). And if you want, you could also place a note by the unregulated/less-regulated list of recently made maps that says the maps in this list are not regulated for quality and [insert derogatory statement here].

This system accomplishes your stated goals, and it doesn't take something useful away from those with different map preferences. It should consequently be more popular and more well-received by the community at large. So, I request/suggest this system be implemented instead.

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If possible I'd like to make a suggestion, instead of nuking the map vault why not use a merit based tagging system?
Instead of a simple vote which people pretty much never use (myself included) either make a prompt that appears somewhere prominent (in the corner tends to get ignored because its pretty small.) From there you have a list of tags which work like descriptors that are found on maps like reclaim heavy, dynamic, astrogap, expansion heavy, etc etc. Then after someone plays a match they have a prompt to vote on it and pick a few descriptors for it which is then displayed on the vault listing. It would make finding map types way easier.

I dont know how easy it is to do but what little programming I know it doesn't sound impossible.

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i feel like this is over-engineering for engineering sake, I agree with both Vinyl117 and Emperor_Penguin, improving the current vault should be the priority, vinyl117 makes an interesting point having tagline descriptors makes it so people can if they want look for maps that have been tagged as expansion heavy or reclaim heavy and the like. adding an extra layer to the current system aka improving it. i see this as way better than what's being suggested by morax as I currently understand it.

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having a vault that is so easy to upload to is a privilege, one that i feel is being abused by poor quality maps, no one looks in the vault coz its all just crap, I hope this change will bring us a vault full with a variety of quality maps, and maybe break the astro/gap cycle

Vault Admin / Creative Team / Map Guru

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I and many others do look in the vault at both the recently made maps list and some of the other lists quite frequently, MadMax. It is useful.

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I would like to share this message from Morax from the previous election:
d9a51e5e-d23d-48fe-aaea-87eae8601ffd-image.png
Keep your campaign promises; make two vaults (or at least two easily accessible vault lists); "one open to all, one to cherished works - simple." - Morax
Also, make it so "community votes would take place for new content so there's no "illuminati" feeling, allowing for all to help build what content is presented." - Morax

I hope the fact that I'm literally quoting you to follow through on your own proposals really sinks in... @Morax

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this is basically that, just the crap vault won't be shown whats the point ?? over here we have store A that sells average quality food, then over here we have store B it sells week old leftovers, which store are you going to ?

Vault Admin / Creative Team / Map Guru

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My campaign promise couldn't be met with regards to the vault because too many people abuse the rules.

No one wants to see maps that have no textures and 5 minutes of thought.

You guys are overthinking how many maps will "disappear from the vault."

I am NOT nuking the map vault, I am simply disallowing showing maps that are "learning process."

Also, please stop writing giant reports and keep your concerns concise? You guys run on and on and lose focus in your replies.

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@Emperor_Penguin said in M&M Map Vault Plans for Fall 2020 and On:

I and many others do look in the vault at both the recently made maps list and some of the other lists quite frequently, MadMax. It is useful.

Can you have these "many others" post here and express their concerns, an alternate idea?

You didn't do a good job showing this when we vault banned you, so if you found evidence with a substantial amount of supporters, please provide that here.

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I look at recently posted to see if there's anything interesting. The fact that the only criteria I can search by are meta metrics (Name, creator name, number of games etc) and almost useless mesa knowledge (number of players and Size withstanding). Rather than anything about the map itself doesn't help me to find maps that I would find enjoyable, a lack of measured comparison makes finding maps that would otherwise be similar or enjoyable very difficult and throwing a blanket over it and pretending its not there doesn't help.

Curtailing the ability to upload doesn't either as most people are not going to go through the work of filling out an application for a game they play in their free time. Especially if they have to wait a day or two to be approved or the reviewer denies their map for personal taste reasons (people will inevitably be subjective afterall). It may instead be better to make the application opt in to gain a mapper/modder tag that is attached to any maps you make. (This shows that you have consistently made quality maps)

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You can still upload a map under my plan...

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@Morax said in M&M Map Vault Plans for Fall 2020 and On:

My campaign promise couldn't be met with regards to the vault because too many people abuse the rules.

That's just not true. You could absolutely just have 2 vaults or 2 lists. If too many people abuse the rules, then have 1 vault/list be either less regulated or unregulated.

You guys are overthinking how many maps will "disappear from the vault."

I am NOT nuking the map vault, I am simply disallowing showing maps that are "learning process."

Based on everything you've said in the literally thousands of your messages that I've read from recent years, I believe I have a pretty good idea of your intentions, and I believe you plan to exclude a very large portion of newly created maps from your whitelist.
Saying that you are "simply disallowing showing maps that are 'learning process.'" doesn't change this, as you consider a huge quantity of people (maybe even the majority) who have ever made a map for FA/FAF to still be in the "learning process" by your standards.

@Morax said in M&M Map Vault Plans for Fall 2020 and On:

Can you have these "many others" post here and express their concerns, an alternate idea?

Most people still refuse to use the forums. If you want to do a balanced in-client pop-up poll for every FAF player that's online, I believe that got a decent amount of responses that were more representative of the community when it was done previously.
But really, if you want proof that many people do look at the recently made maps list, just look at the number of games that are hosted by people on maps that they have never played that they have downloaded from the vault. Heck, I've heard that like half of the games played on FAF are singleplayer anyway, often played by people who basically never play multiplayer. I've looked extensively over a decent number of new maps' game history over the past few months, and many people are obviously downloading them from the recently made maps list on the vault, and some of those new maps get hundreds of plays within their first few months.

@Morax said in M&M Map Vault Plans for Fall 2020 and On:

You can still upload a map under my plan...

Being able to upload a map to a vault where almost no one will see it because it's not easily enough accessible/discoverable is better than nothing, but it's much, much worse for getting maps out there than being able to upload it to somewhere where everyone can easily enough see it if they're looking for new maps to play.
Doing the 2 vaults or 2 lists idea would resolve this issue.

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i don't think handing out good boy badges will stop the flow of crap into the vault

Vault Admin / Creative Team / Map Guru

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delivering quality content in an easily accessible place sounds like the plan 2 vaults overly complicates things and is far from ideal

Vault Admin / Creative Team / Map Guru

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I just noticed my paragraph split in half at some point, yeesh. But I didn't say you can't upload with your system I'm saying that it will keep people from wanting to even try. I've uploaded only 1 map onto the vault and that's because making good maps take time (it's not easy) but if I find out I have to make 3 and then send them in for a CHANCE to get uploading privileges is pretty ludicrous and would dissuade most people from even attempting to make maps. Quote below for emphasis.

@Morax said in M&M Map Vault Plans for Fall 2020 and On:

How to be given access to the vault?

Good question, and there will be an application process made. I am thinking a sample of 3 maps uploaded to the vault with replays that the M&M team can review to see it meets the rules.

After that, the author will be given unlimited access, so long as they keep abiding to the rules of the vault.

@MadMax said in M&M Map Vault Plans for Fall 2020 and On:

i don't think handing out good boy badges will stop the flow of crap into the vault

It's wont stop people from uploading but it does highlight good uploading criteria and makes finding maps that are uploaded by vetted skill mappers easier. Most people don't know who makes the map they're playing on unless there's a text popup on screen. This will at a minimum give them a way to actively search the vault with ease.

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@MadMax said in M&M Map Vault Plans for Fall 2020 and On:

delivering quality content in an easily accessible place sounds like the plan 2 vaults overly complicates things and is far from ideal

2 lists for this would be pretty easy to implement and is not complicated; there are already at least 4 public map lists on the vault. Doing the 2 lists idea would be better than doing just a whitelist.
Comparatively, doing 2 vaults would potentially be even better, and Morax's old post said that he was certain that the java client could show the 2 vaults idea easily.
So, either the 2 lists or 2 vaults idea should be done. Either would be a great step in the right direction.

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Penguin, I am not going to run through why I disagree with you here again and again like the past year.

If people don't want to voice their opinions where it has been voiced for years, then it's their fault. Again, you are claiming "most people don't want to use the forums" but I don't see this in discord or other sources.

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having one vault where anything goes is pointless there would still need to be a minimum of rules and then it would need to be policed so how is that any better than what we have now ?

Vault Admin / Creative Team / Map Guru