4v4 TMM Map List WIP - Community Feedback Welcome

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To re-iterate: You are correct. Setons, the map, isn't special.
Setoners, the subgroup of players, is, purely due to their size and gamecount.

You can have someone with a whored BO/strategy on literally any faf map. It is just highly impactful, and due to the quantity of games, much more likely to happen on setons

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@ftxcommando said in 4v4 TMM Map List WIP - Community Feedback Welcome:

I recognize that there is a large minority with lots of senton experience. I also recognize these guys are going to be better on a map pool built around maps that play like sentons. I don't see any sort of person that is 1000 at maps like selkie, metir, requisite, and lena river being somehow hugely shit at sentons. And if you can't apply your senton BOs to these other maps because your knowledge is that disgustingly singular then you're just a bad player that should have low rating. Really those senton players should be gaining rating in general with a full share 20x20 pool.

Who cares about rating? Fuck rating. Rating only matters in so far as it creates balanced games, which it wont for those disgustingly singular knowledge having players.
And there are in fact quite a lot of them. Or at least many more than you'd want for consistently balanced and fun games on setons

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You and I disagree because I don't think sentons is some super hard, complex, nuanced big brain thing that the dime a dozen 20x20 full share maps don't prepare you for. Your BOs don't make you turn from generic 800 to 1600. If it did, it applies to many of the other maps in the pool unless you literally play by following an excel sheet you made for yourself. And the people that do that aren't going to play a matchmaker that intentionally gives you randomized slots and randomized mates and randomized maps. You'll stay in your comfy 800-1200 senton fixed balance game where you choose Cybran to make hive RAS boys since it's what Yudi did in the senton game you watched and wrote down in your excel sheet.

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@ftxcommando said in 4v4 TMM Map List WIP - Community Feedback Welcome:

You and I disagree because I don't think sentons is some super hard, complex, nuanced big brain thing that the dime a dozen 20x20 full share maps don't prepare you for.

I actually agree with you here. Setons, in itself, isn't any harder or easier to play than any of the other, similar 20x20 full share maps.

And yes, playing those will prepare you well enough for setons. The problem is that playing mostly setons doesn't really prepare you for e.g. wonder because this:

Your BOs don't make you turn from generic 800 to 1600.

doesn't apply in reverse. A generic 1k wont become a 1.5k overnight by learning some BOs.

But a mostly setons 1k will be a 500 on any other map, that still plays 500 above its new rank on setons.

And the people that do that aren't going to play a matchmaker that intentionally gives you randomized slots and randomized mates and randomized maps. You'll stay in your comfy 800-1200 senton fixed balance game where you choose Cybran to make hive RAS boys.

How'd you know? Shouldn't we at least consider that they might want to branch out and, if they do, make sure that they don't unintentionally ruin the game for anyone else?

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If they would want to branch out, they don't care that they will ruin a game because they are so OP that their tmm rating doesn't account for their senton skill. In fact, it would encourage them to play as everyone likes being the low rated guy that crushes higher rated people, especially at the 800-1200 rating where you are literally nobody and only recognized for what your rating is. By including sentons, you only make it more likely that these excel sheet dudes MIGHT play as at least they can feel comfortable on one of the potential maps.

And no, I disagree entirely that some sentoner will be 500 on many of the 20x20s and 1000 on sentons. And again, wonder wouldn't be in a full share pool, it would be share until death. Huge Wonder would be full share, but that's because it's a hugely spread out land based 20x20 with tons of tree reclaim and massive rock buildup in mid to express control over.

You know to reclaim trees? You know to make an air factory? You know to drop sometimes? You know to hit mex upgrade button? Congrats, you're 1000 on every 20x20. Only thing that is different between Huge Wonder and sentons is that you need to actually learn about units expressing map control in order to keep your eco safe since I imagine most low level sentons don't involve drops or t2 air harassing eco and instead is two dudes massing up navy to smash into each other.

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@ftxcommando said in 4v4 TMM Map List WIP - Community Feedback Welcome:

If they would want to branch out, they don't care that they will ruin a game because they are so OP that their tmm rating doesn't account for their senton skill.

We shouldn't care that they don't care about ruining games. We should only care that they will ruin games, regardless of why.

In fact, it would encourage them to play as everyone likes being the low rated guy that crushes higher rated people, especially at the 800-1200 rating where you are literally nobody and only recognized for what your rating is. By including sentons, you only make it more likely that these excel sheet dudes MIGHT play as at least they can feel comfortable on one of the potential maps.

Possibly, but I can't see it being a huge draw if one out of every ten maps is setons. I can see it being a huge problem though if one out of every ten games is unfun and over before it began though.

And no, I disagree entirely that some sentoner will be 500 on many of the 20x20s and 1000 on sentons. And again, wonder wouldn't be in a full share pool, it would be share until death. Huge Wonder would be full share, but that's because it's a hugely spread out land based 20x20 with tons of tree reclaim and massive rock buildup in mid to express control over.

You know to reclaim trees? You know to make an air factory? You know to drop sometimes? You know to hit mex upgrade button? Congrats, you're 1000 on every 20x20. Only thing that is different between Huge Wonder and sentons is that you need to actually learn about units expressing map control in order to keep your eco safe since I imagine most low level sentons don't involve drops or t2 air harassing eco and instead is two dudes massing up navy to smash into each other.

Yes, that's exactly it! It hasn't been that long since I started learning faf, so I still intimately understand how complex, and map dependent, this favorite game of ours is.

Saying that they "just" need to learn about "units expressing map control in order to keep your eco safe is" is technically true, but withholds that this "just" is like a dozen hours of experience, or maybe more.

So yes, map specialist players will get more general gameplay knowledge over time and in a couple of months everything I'm describing might not even be worth talking about anymore.

Or 4v4 could be dead by then because nobody wants to take the risk to sit in a queue for 10 minutes, just to play another shitty unbalanced setons that's over before it began

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There will be some unbalanced games at the start anyway, because we initialize from global. There is no way to gauge how well the very different global experiences translate to skill in a new matchmaker, that's why we increase the sigma to keep this phase short, but it will still be there. In your arguing it seems like you are forgetting that the 4v4 full share queue will basically consist of maps that play roughly like setons for the most part. You already conceded that there is not really an inherent difference between setons and other 20x20 maps with spread out spawns. You still argue about setons specifically, because you think seton's knowledge will translate so bad to other maps to easily make a difference of over 500 rating? Seems pretty inconsitent to me.

What the map pool team could do to play it super safe is to leave setons out of the first pool and only include it in the second pool. This way nobody can blame unbalanced games on the setons bo whores. But imo it is not really needed to do that.

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@blackyps said in 4v4 TMM Map List WIP - Community Feedback Welcome:

You still argue about setons specifically, because you think seton's knowledge will translate so bad to other maps to easily make a difference of over 500 rating?

Yes. Specialized knowledge of any map translates badly to other maps, because generalization is actually quite hard.

If you had taken 1.5k me from half a year ago and put me on any non setons map, even if it was a 20x20 fullshare map, I wouldn't have played above a 1k level for the first couple matches and would have needed dozens of games to even approach 1.3k performance on those.

I'm almost certainly an extreme example here (even today I'm still hundreds of rank better on setons than on other maps, because I like grinding the same shit over and over again until I "get it") but I know there are quite a few people who play 90%+ setons, in the same way there are quite a lot of people who play 90%+ dual gap.

What the map pool team could do to play it super safe is to leave setons out of the first pool and only include it in the second pool. This way nobody can blame unbalanced games on the setons bo whores. But imo it is not really needed to do that.

Well, perception is important, as you can see from all the people blaming BO whores for their 1k ladder match losses. Even if I am completely wrong here, I think there is an argument to be made to keep setons out of the first ladder pool, just to avoid the impression of BO whores ruining the game.

I think I have made my point though.

To re-iterate: This is not about people getting an unfairly low or high 4v4 matchmaker rank. Internet points don't matter.

This is purely about having fun games for people in the <1.5k regime and unbalanced games of setons specifically might be very common there, while not being fun at all.

I think setons should be in the pool eventually (I do love the map afterall), just not at the beginning.

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First of all, I doubt too many <1.k will play the FS queue, 90%+ will probably choose NS one since that's what they are familiar with. Second of all, I doubt any hardcore Seton's players will even play the queue since like you mentioned if they play Seton's only, they are not very keen on playing a queue where they have only like 5% chance of getting their one and only map. In any other scenario, I don't believe it will impact the balance of the games enough to warrant a removal of the most popular team game map from the matchmaker.

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Damn, and here I thought ladder players were elitist.

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not sure if this is in response to my posts, but just to make sure:

my arguments were not: "omg, setons players are so good on setons, they'll crush anyone else w/o 100 hours of games there"

but instead: "omg, purely setons players are so bad everywhere else, that them suddenly playing at medium competency on setons will unintentionally unbalance games horribly"

So I guess I mostly tried to express the problems highly specialized knowledge can cause.

I guess we'll see if I'm right to be worried or not, but I believe it's at least worth thinking about

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@archsimkat said in 4v4 TMM Map List WIP - Community Feedback Welcome:

Damn, and here I thought ladder players were elitist.

Sentons is holy.

But on a serious note, there’s quite a bit more team games players by like a factor of 300:1 so you’ll be seeing a lot of commotion here.

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This is only illusion due to you being 2k. Everytime im playing x v x against lower rated players they are so fucked. And i dont dare to say that pool should be changed. But instead the thin edge between being able to overhelm my team or me crushing is kinda what it is about. But let me say that rating system kinda negates the possibility of me crushing everytime by making their team stronger. I only pity my teammates sometime.

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I think if there is a gap, then there should be a seton 🙂

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@robustness said in 4v4 TMM Map List WIP - Community Feedback Welcome:

I think if there is a gap, then there should be a seton 🙂

I kind of want to axe the gap idea.... i really don't feel like having something in a matchmaker pool that may require a Mavor to end the game...

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From my experience 3v3 gap wasn't that bad, so 4v4 maybe won't be too bad either. The amount of mass that is in the middle really makes it hard to pass it up and giving it up will lead to fast eco snowball for the team that managed to wrestle the control over it without overpaying too much in eco departament. So honestly those games shouldn't be nearly as bad as 6v6 gap.

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@morax I don't mind, the most popular map should stay in the global better

but it's not worth sticking a seton everywhere, this map is no better than the same gap 😃

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@robustness He spoke the truth and they hated him for it lol

FAF = Femboy Alliance Forever

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4v4 dg is hardly different, you’ll still have a dude eco rushing for nuke or game ender he may just send his acu to mid to express some control. Or you’ll have some low effort navy investment and the navy player does straight eco. There is hardly any real way you’re breaking a team in it without some game ender.

Dude comparing it to sentons has zero clue how to read maps.

2v2 or 3v3 is the limit for a serious dg game I’d say. After that you have designated nuke rusher. Wouldn’t even be in the bottom half of 2v2 maps in pool rn.

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The pool looks pretty nice! I'm glad to see that Wonder Open is in there, it's a good map.

Have to say I'd be interested in having Setons in occasionally so I can give it a try without being in a game with 7 Setons pros.