Aeon T1 addition: heavy tank

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@valki said in Aeon T1 addition: heavy tank:

@cyborg16 said in Aeon T1 addition: heavy tank:

Aeon, "thematically", has single-purpose

That could advocate seperating the damage dealing from the tanking

Yes, partly this. My stats given above give the T1 heavy tank 50% more HP and 33% more damage than a Striker at 67% more cost. This will likely need tweaking. The idea is that in groups the Bear (if we call it that) is about as cost-effective as T1 medium tanks in tank battles, albeit slower.

We have sniper gameplay already in t3 level.

Yes. At T1 it would play differently since the ACU has a bigger role. Maybe too much complexity, but Aurora are already a complexity.

Aurora losing range and earning hp would not bother me at all, I would rather be glad.

Sure, we could make the Aurora another T1 medium tank and be done with it. Except various people like faction diversity.

Having shield would certainly add in faction diversity. Making people protect power and avoid stalling.

No. At T2 this is the case: you need to budget more power if you want to build (mobile) shields. (Also for overcharge.) But at T1 power is significantly more expensive and balance already finely tuned (low-pgen land-spam builds or higher amounts for air and/or eco, or early power to rush gun). T1 mobile shields would likely make gun-ACU OP. Also the Aurora is weak to bombers on purpose; a cheesy way to counter bombers in the early game would make the Aurora even more OP.

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@cyborg16 said in Aeon T1 addition: heavy tank:

No. At T2 this is the case: you need to budget more power if you want to build (mobile) shields.

He meant a personal shield for the Aurora, not a T1 mobile shield. That's why I upvoted that idea.

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@cyborg16 There was never question about adding t1 mobile shields. We talked about adding shield on Aurora (personal shield), while reducing range to have similar caracteristics (hp) as other t1 tanks. But with more faction diversity.

"Sure, we could make the Aurora another T1 medium tank and be done with it. Except various people like faction diversity"
Faction diversity is fine, but people not playing one nation (on 1v1) because of that, is less fine.

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Well, that idea is even more absurd: early tanks which have a big impact on power balance?

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Gentlemen, I think we are missing the bigger picture here. What if the problem isn't the blessed Aurora, but rather the heathens?

We are overlooking a simple solution to the problem:
or stug life meme, whatever
T1 tank destroyers for the heathens 😄

You must deceive the enemy, sometimes your allies, but you must always deceive yourself!

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@kalethequick tbh I thought about that too, I really hate that T1 arty is so powerful and ubiquitous as it partially fills the tank destroyer role. Aside from the blessed Aeon being cursed with bad artillery, it is sort of the only artillery that purely fulfills the sacred role of dedicated artillery.

Just dreaming here... but

  • Tank: Like the Striker, an all purpose tank with fast rotating turret
  • Tank Destroyer: Like a Aurora with a damage buff and no nerf to range. Or a sniper bot which is basically a tank destroyer... maybe we should stay away from Tank Destroyers also to avoid confusion with naval, and call them Sniper Bots or Sniper Tanks.
  • Artillery: Like the fervor, except without unit tracking. Real artillery should never hit a moving unit (in the game) but a few artillery should be able to quickly destroy a building
  • Raider: Like a Mantis with a speed buff range nerf cost reduction and hp nerf, a unit that is plentiful in number and fast, for raiding and countering Tank Destroyers Sniper units

Tbh this could be the start of a "Tank War" sim mod...
Edit: I want to clarify that I agree with @FtXCommando below that this is too much for the core game.

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@cyborg16 said in Aeon T1 addition: heavy tank:

Well, that idea is even more absurd: early tanks which have a big impact on power balance?

Aeon is the difficult faction requiring a lot of micro already - what is wrong with adding more eco micro on top of that?

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I thought the whole point here was making the faction approachable? Having to make 4 different units for 4 different roles with more micro on top is not going to make Aeon any easier for new players. And it isn't like the faction sucks at high level games so it doesn't need some buff from adding new units, strength will mostly have to come from making other aspects of the roster weaker.

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Also the big problem I have here is cost, you are making a cheap T2 unit not a t1 unit

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T1 land doesn't need any more new units. Save your effort for T1 naval.

put the xbox units in the game pls u_u

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@zeldafanboy Ah, I see you are a man of culture as well.

You must deceive the enemy, sometimes your allies, but you must always deceive yourself!

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The balance team (I don't speak for them) generally avoids adding new units where possible to keep FAF resemblant of base FA. There were only a few exceptions such as the T3 MAA and even those were controversial.

I understand you want it balanced for lower-rated players, but I think it is best to balance around how units are played at the top level. Lower rated players and even ones at my level really struggle with some basic concepts, so it is hard to say if it is due to it being harder to fight at a lower level, or just less experience in the matchup:

If an Aeon player plays 30 ladder games, and we say for the sake of argument that all factions are picked evenly, then he will gain experience against 'normal tank' factions 75% of the time. On the flip-side, a UEF player will face a 'range tank' faction (aeon) only 25% of the time. So when you're a new player with only 30 or so ladder games, it's quite often that an aeon player of the same skill level will have double the experience in a matchup. This is part of what I think contributes to new players having trouble against Aeon.

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@evan_ said in Aeon T1 addition: heavy tank:

I think it is best to balance around how units are played at the top level.

Yes.

If you try to balance for low-rated players, what do you think would happen? High-rated players would figure out how to exploit the new units. The meta would change. Everyone else would try to copy what the high-rated players do. And then things would be broken again for the low-rated players.

The balance will always be "broken" for low-rated people. 99% of them would win 10% more games if they just made tiny, tiny changes to the way they played.

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So the attitude towards newer folk is "get gud skrub"

I mean, reasonable to a degree. If we kept altering the game to cater to new people who have difficulty understanding the systems we have all put a decade into understanding, those systems would be gone, and it wouldn't be the game we are here to play anymore. But we can still do things to help out lower level players and help them have a fun time too. However, I don't think the answer to that is a T1.5 tank, especially for a faction we are asserting is too complex for noobies to get into, because of it's micro of a wide variety of units.

Still going to make a unit mod for it... Eventually.

You must deceive the enemy, sometimes your allies, but you must always deceive yourself!

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why do you guys think aeon needs a new t1 unit in the first place? has there been a patch that has brutalised aeon to the unplayable t1 stage?
aeon has a great trade off in air and better t1 land,you lose air-you lose your land,it's a bit of more work for players but surely worth a shot,imagine giving sniper bots to all factions,bit broken isn't it?same for aeon gun com that can be uterly broken if used correctly and yeah,aeon is requiring more skill to play as you are forced to always babysit your stuff,this game doesn't need new units,it needs a rebalance for the existing onces in the first place

queuing with a newbie to show him the beauty of tmm and meeting tagada be like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLcRpdZ0Xb0&ab_channel=Tomoko

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@rezy-noob said in Aeon T1 addition: heavy tank:

why do you guys think aeon needs a new t1 unit in the first place?

In my opinion Aeon is perfectly balanced, but not as it should be. Especially for beginning players it should be more accessible... Merely renaming the Aurora from "Medium tank" to "Sniper tank" or "Medium tank destroyer" could help in that regard.

However, the other topic shows that the Aurora is not fun. Best idea I saw is for Aurora to become normal, preferably with a personal shield, and the Flare to become a sniper bot with Aurora 's old range.

Some people prefer the addition of a unit instead to resolve the fun issue I think.

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Except that idea is what already exists. You want aurora to be a medium tank because aurora sucks in dealing with small raids compared to other factions. Except this is why they have a lab that basically functions as a proto-tank. Aeon still has a weakness but it isn’t one without a solution and it still keeps the uniqueness of the aurora. Swapping the roles of the two just brings them back to where we are.

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aeon was never designed for the newbies in the first place,even in vanilla sup com you start with uef then cyb with aeon being the last one.
by giving auroras more advantages for "new players",you completely destroy the high level games where this is becoming a game changer as the not that aeon has stupidly strong labs,but also a counter raid tank and an assault raid,there is no way or need to do so,that's why you aslo have the faction diversity-you feel bad with aeon->play uef,cyb,sera

queuing with a newbie to show him the beauty of tmm and meeting tagada be like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLcRpdZ0Xb0&ab_channel=Tomoko

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@ftxcommando said in Aeon T1 addition: heavy tank:

Swapping the roles of the two just brings them back to where we are.

No, it brings us to a better place. People see a tank that is actually able to tank, and they see a sniper bot that is meant for staying at a distance and dying up close.

Isn't that beautiful? - To maintain the same balance while providing clarity to new players?

Though tbh, if the aurora becomes a real tank and the flare gets its old range, there will still be some significant tuning work to be done. And symbol changes, does a T1 sniper bot icon even exist?

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Why would you assume that a lab being a sniper bot is any more rational than a lab being a proto-tank? If anything the current implementation is more intuitive because the lab is just functioning in the lab role except the relevancy period is larger. This solution requires changing two units entirely from what they were in base game rather than just extending the role of 1, the former is a much larger pain for new players.