- Toxicity in FAF is bad, as lots of people pointed out in my thread about why they would leave FAF. Toxicity repels new members of our community. At the moment we lose 21,000 newish players a year. Once we fix this and few other barriers to entry, we can start paid advertising to get more players and grow. But unfortunately on FAF .. toxicity goes all the way to the top.
Toxicity in faf is actually not that bad by any gaming standards. If anything we are way better off than many other way more popular communities out there.
So no I don't think that the toxicity is the main culprit of people going away from this game.
And no we don't lose 21000 new players each year. Those players are bound to disappear one way or another as no one sane will ever think about having 100% retention rate. If anything we are currently doing quite good if we have 10% retention rate over a span of whooping 2 years. That means that 10 people out of 100 will keep on playing this game for 2 years straight which is amazing.
As a point of contention I will bring up latest TF|2 events that community did together with help of Respawn and a sale.
Before the event we avaraged 2.5k people globally at 11pm. After sale we peaked at good 8k people and slowly started coming back to normal numbers. After 3-4 weeks we were down to good old 3.5k players at said hours and slowly declining to the numbers of hardened veterans.
Seeing that stuff is not looking so great we decided to run a massive social media campaign urging everyone to come and play TF|2 together with us on may 1. Spamming reddit, twitter, forums and trying to expose other FPS players to what TF|2 is and why should they give it a try for the low price of 5 moners.
This is also the moment when Respawn took up our memes and decided to grace us with 4 day period (31.04-03.05)of TF|2 being free to play for everyone on steam and origin. This is where we peak, 22k players online in the EU evening.
After that the free period is over but we still see amazing amount of players averaging around 10k(13k weekends) for the first few days after the free trial. Honestly big success considering the sale is long over and there is this many people willing to buy the game at full price(or maybe on g2a lol). Unfortunately the numbers don't hold up and soon enough people start slowly dropping our one by one and going back to other actively maintained games. Now 1 full month after that event we are at 3k people average (4.k players on weekends). And that is only one month after the our big community campaign with lots of them also being returning veterans.
Now if you compare it to the 10% retention rate of faf over the span of 2 whooping years I think you can finally see that FAF is actually doing pretty well in this departament. Even more when I can 100% tell you that TF|2 community is actually just as prone to salt considering certain balance issues there and a big stigma regarding certain weapons, titans and loadouts which goes way beyond what our usual gap/astro bashing looks like. Also, both games are critically acclaimed but underplayed so we have that too in common lol. Oh, and TF|2 is just as merciless
for new players as FAF.
So no I don't think that your justification of not working on external promotion is anything more than just an excuse for you not doing any other real work apart from setting up news-hub and then more or less maintaining it. Even more when the topic that was supposed to gauge out our problems is so friggin old it's not even funny.
To be honest, I don't believe that you are so inept to only start working on it now after all this months of that data lying there and being useless. It's just that only now you had a bigger stake in all of this than just improving FAF (which let's be frank you weren't so interested in lately)
It's just that now is the best moment for you to actually try to gain as much leverage as you can before being actively removed from your duties due to not doing that much work and most importantly clear problems with conflicting interests due to your work on direct competitor to FAF. Which you never bothered to properly disclose to others together with other folks that are part of FAF. And that is something that you as councilor should have done long ago which only just proves that our mistrust is was properly placed.
@nine2 said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
Look at the abusive names our councilors call people on reddit. Sure, the player he is talking to was problematic and was banned, and sure the post has since been moderated, thank god, although it's still there on reddit. But the point here is that our councilor that represents FAF, and a moderator of our reddit, is abusive.
The matter at hand was again and again dealt with politely. To the detriment of whole FAF that was suffering under this persons unhinged and often psychotic attacks. Person in question was politely asked again and again to start behaving as the FAF policy asks to. Not to be a dick to every person he desnt agree with, to not sabotage work of other contributors, to not steal the work of other people, to not harass faf moderators and to not keep on coming with wild demands to the discord moderation.
He was dealt with appropriately time and time again. Each time the moderation team was fully professional and handled his case with utmost care. Unfortunately there was no change in the behaviour of the unit in question which only kept on escalating it's attacks going as far as to again and again send death threats to other FAF contributors while boasting how he is not right in the head as he have the papers and he even won few cases in the court by waving them and proving how he's not mentally stable.
We have done everything we could to end the case politely, unfortunately it wasn't to happen. Perma ban from faf discord and game only brought up more resentment and more attacks onto the good name of our community.
So no, I can't blame bias and other people in that reddit thread for finally snapping and calling him for what he is. If anything I applaud the people who didn't let him tarnish the FAF name, even if they had to use stern words, but unfortunately that unit have proved again and again unable to accept that the problem lies in it, not in the whole faf community.
@nine2 said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
It doesnt stop there though. Go search for the c-word on discord and see who's name comes up over and over again. This is not a one off case, this is a system. Sadly, this makes FAF look childish, and it could be so much more.
I know that you all are looking for the nice utalitarian and dystopian future where everyone behaves on the rails and plays to your tune. Unfortunately you have to understand that we all come from different background and as such we are part of different cultures. By extension some of us are more than happy to call each other cunt and other not so derogatory terms as a means of endearing so that at the end of the day we can just go and drink a bottle of beer while laughing happily about our days. Childish? Maybe, but it's by no means harmful and is widely accepted across the world and in many communities. Especially as the people in question use it only when speaking with others who have nothing against it.
To be honest it kind of makes me sad that you never got to experience this type of friendship in football club or other hobby circle when you can tell the other person straight to the face what is weighting on your heart and then reconcile in the evening being the best friends again.
@nine2 said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
The council is toxic to the point of being disfunctional, the inner council conversations are contaminated with petty words and walls of text. We can't even converse in a sensible way about topics like elections or the association. Do you know I get called names in formal Council chat?
Can't say what is going on inside council but from my experience there is big underlying issue here being the fact that certain people are having trouble putting some distance between themselves and the words they read. Thinking that everything is meant to attack them and make them suffer. All of that while thinking that they deserve way better. To me it mostly seems like there is underlying lack of humbleness in a big part of the community here.
And yes you are a big part of this problem nine2 which you have demonstrated again and again by being unable to take criticism in any form but the most polite one which only strikes me as something that someone who lacks humbleness would do.
@nine2 said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
Click here to see what really goes on in the council. This document shows me getting called pathetic, a sociopath, ftx refusing to cooperate with the new FAF Association, councilors swearing a lot, lot's of really uncool stuff in serious conversations. It went on for weeks. There is way more but you get the idea.
Tbh, what I see here is nothing but lack of being able to take a step back and not take everything as a direct attack at your person. Which is a shame considering that it often goes in pair with too high of esteem about yourself and instead ends up with you looking down on people from your high moral position, when instead you could have tried to understand the other party more and why are they so full of pain when dealing with your person.
What I see are people full of passion for the project that are just full of pain due to others not only not putting as much time and love to the project but also being disregarded by the rest of the people in the know who should be actively working in making this a better place.
@nine2 said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
If the role-model Council members are not accountable for their toxicity, how can we expect the ordinary members of the community to have ANY form of respect for each other? FAF will stay like this forever, where people just shit on each other, and 20,000 players just leave.
Again, I don't see anything inherently toxic in there. I see people full of passion fed up with current state of affairs.
As for them being over the faf rules? Unfortunately I don't think that's how it is considering that Gieb should still have the power to remove/ban the post/people that he deems too toxic or to be breaking the rules of faf including FTX/Biass/me and others that you and your people deem to be plague upon the sacred grounds of FAF.
As for the 20000 players leaving, please stop using this statistic as argument as it's nothing but a willingly done misuse of statistics not only in bad manner but also in bad faith. It's clear that you are not willing to use them properly so stop waiving them around like some kind of godsend information that give you heaven legitimacy. Just stop, as you are making a bigger and bigger fool of yourself even more when you clearly said that you will not begin working on externally promoting FAF. Which again brings us back to Sanctuarium which is direct competitor to FAF and which will be sold by you and your friends to make money of it. Sounds like you needed excuse not to promote faf and instead focus on your new baby.
@nine2 said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
Many people share my views on toxicity. You won't see them speaking out too much around the place, but they know I am receptive and they message me. They tell me that they refuse to read a forum topic since some toxic person joined the debate. They say that they had to stay away from aeolus chat and make their own chat due to the toxic people there. They say they have had enough and think of quitting their positions. The reasonable people don't tell you they are exiting a conversation due to toxicity, they just quietly pack their bags and go elsewhere, and this will continue until one day, eventually only the toxic people remain, and FAF is dead. This has to stop.
If they don't speak, they will never be heard. Especially when it takes just a moment to message moderators or even tell the apparently toxic one to tone it down. They don't need you to make a change, the tools are already there at the grasp of their hands. All they needed to do is take action.
So sorry if I can't see this but you putting on airs and trying to make yourself a savior of faf that will save it from the bad internet worlds out there. I just don't buy it. If I could get banned when I crossed the line then other will get banned even faster than me.
And then we again come back to the sad reality that people are not perceptive to negative feedback and instead will opt to take it as attack at their face. Even if it wasn't meant as such and instead was just informal response. We have people in place to screen forums so if someone feels attacked then they should just report the offender and await the judgement of people in charge which are far away from being under the grasp of evil FTX and his cronies.
If the moderators don't see the answers as breaking the rules of faf and being toxic then maybe it's time to take a step back and think about putting some distance between yourself and the words you read on internet. It can help a lot, it helped me so I bet it can help you too.
@nine2 said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
THESE BEHAVIOURS ARE NOT OK. Aside from the rudeness and hostility, it's like I said, it's disfunctional. Work is impeded.
Again, I don't think it's that bad here as you are trying to make it sounds.
I just feel like you are taking everything as an attack on your person even when it's not which ends up making you feel like everyone is hostile to you.
Which frankly saying is not really what's happening.
And no, we are far away from being dysfunctional. If anything I can't help but see your vision of FAF and world as the dysfunctional one. Hell the more I hear the more I feel like people are trying to make faf one of those dystopias that you see and read about in movies and books.
@nine2 said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
I believe FAF can GROW and THRIVE. We have so many cool people, we have new projects, a steady feed of new players and new maps and SO MUCH to work with. If we could just take steps towards limiting the hostility, FAF would grow even more
I mean, funnily enough faf started growing more and more when the toxic contributors like FTX and Biass took over. Maybe their approach is actually the better one and more realistic considering it's grounded and to the face. They will do stuff and tell you what they really mean instead of hiding behind plethora of nice words but in the end not doing anything meaningful.
Also if you were to do your goddamn job of promoting faf externally then maybe we would have even more players here and now? Naaah, you have sanctuary to worry about. No time for FAF lol.
@nine2 said in Council of Setons EXPOSED - Part 1:
"But Nine, you are totally abusing your position of news editor"
There is nothing in my job description to say that I can't post news items for myself. I have posted every single news item for everyone else bar one, which was about a SCTA show match. I should get to talk as well. If someone wants to make some counter post to this they can ask me and I am very likely to put that on the news - just phrase it objectively like 'jerry said nine is dumb' and dont say 'nine is dumb'.
Well gee, thanks for going after my head in this nonchalant way. Glad to know that you never wanted to be objective at all. No wonder I got kicked for this:
With this being the peak toxicity, sure the wording is strong but it should be in this day and age when propaganda is running amok. Even more when I get to live and hear propaganda 24/7 from my own government and have dictator running amok in neighbouring country.
All 'cuz I saw a promotion post that used the exact same underhanded tactics of subliminal messaging that my own government employs on daily basis.
And sorry nine2, but what you did is also toxic and unbecoming of councilor position. If anything that's stepping lower than anything that biass and ftx did as when they get abrasive at times they still listen to others and try to help out, even if at times coming of abrasive.
Meanwhile you never took the words I said and instead decided to just remove me from the server while clearly stating that my words were meant to harm you and your person when they were only directed at big ass discrepancy in your treatment of news regarding the PC elections.
You literally kicked me for providing feedback, and then never tried to understand why I reacted the way I did to such blatant subliminal messaging in your news posts. How does it come off better when you did worse than FTX ever did to me(and I had few spats with him and others that you deem toxic), even Rackover was easier to talk with than you.
It comes of as laughable when you preach understanding others and trying to help make bridges then outright state that you don't give shit about my background and why I reacted so strongly to you working like fucking Polish Goverement propaganda tube. Sorry, I just can't see you as someone who actually cares about others. You only care about them when it's good for your agenda.
I'm just sorry, I really feel sorry seeing what you are trying to do, that's what I and how I feel.
On the bright side I'm only more and more in awe of how great of man Giebmasse is. Hope you will become one day half of the man he is.