A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community

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@morax said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:

For me, I think there has been such a lack of them in recent years and the promotion does not help, either. IF you think I am wrong, please show some evidence of a recent tourney of that nature where people simply "did not care" as you suggest.

Wym "did not care"?

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By the way, the sum up of this thread thus far: no one is interested and they don't need to be, although most of you are on the balance, moderation, and player council teams. It seems utterly crap that people with positions of power get to use the "we don't care excuse " over and over.

Please continue posting in this manner as it will help my case with the interested parties.

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Wym we do not care? XDD It's like, oh you are choosing to host 1 tourney and it's LoTS instead of a tourney for 1.6k's? Shame on you Ftx.
The only thing that comes out of this thread is : There is a problem eg. Not enough TD's overall and those that are willing to host low - mid - lower high rated tourneys in particular. How do you propose we solve such an issue? There has been 0 suggestions, just whining. It's not like Ftx did not try to tackle this problem, it;s just a hard one with no obvious solutions.

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@ftxcommando said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:

https://forums.faforever.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19432

You tried to quantify it all rather use open-ended responses for situations.

Let me ask you, how many people in the lower tiers would reply "20x20 too annoying to play because big" as a response or "i don't like emerald crater because it is a stupid map that is boring" source: https://forum.faforever.com/topic/1530/emerald-craters/15

You don't have much real empathy for understanding situations with conversation from what I see in your decision-making for something with this much impact, spare maybe LoTS because there is a ton of money thrown at it. I have seen you write WAY MORE detailed posts about tourney structure to appeal to that event alone than anything.

If you could actually use some real, written feedback to these surveys I would like to see that.

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@morax said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:

By the way, the sum up of this thread thus far: no one is interested and they don't need to be, although most of you are on the balance, moderation, and player council teams. It seems utterly crap that people with positions of power get to use the "we don't care excuse " over and over.

Please continue posting in this manner as it will help my case with the interested parties.

Ah yes, I am sure that Ftx and others like me do not care at all and don't do anything, it's not like how Ftx cooridantes, prepares rule sets that can be set by any new TD so it's easier for them, gets some streamer/caster to cover a tourney etc. On the other hand I also contribute as I can, eg. I offer my lessons as prizes for such tourneys so ...

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There was a written feedback segment in that survey. I didn't post the results because it doesn't help people to post 250 written messages, half of which are in Russian. I looked through each and every comment there and had the Russian ones translated. It's why I wanted to make videos/guides for traditional lower level ladder maps in the <300 pool as that was a suggestion in the feedback section.

Honestly I feel like if I posted those comments I'd be sitting here reading people explain how I did it as an ego-trip because most of them were just explaining people were grateful for FAF, the people working on it, and that people continue to try to make it better.

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Just make a google doc or something and log it somewhere. You don't need to read it all but it would be interesting to see more detailed responses.

Can someone answer me, though, when was the last ~1800-ish event? What happened?

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https://forum.faforever.com/topic/825/holiday-tournament/28

Edit: I read ~ as <.

I'm going to assume you mean ~1600 not ~1800 because all you need to participate in the bimonthly league series is 1800 rating. The last ~1600 tournament I have no idea, it was probably one of the Russian streamed 2v2 events.

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FTX has done a lot of work to make hosting tournies/showmatches on faflive a very smooth process, so take advantage of it. I don't think this needs to be said again, but you don't have to be a player councillor to host a tournament.

You seem to have a lot of very specific restrictions that you would like to see, so you can host a tourney with exactly those restrictions. There is nothing stopping you from hosting a tournament specifically for people who don't have the energy to spam too many games like demonstreamer, but have 500+ games, but who don't want to whore BOs either like those dirty 1900+ who unfairly play at a super high level, but who also aren't literal trash tier at under 1600. You know, a tourney for the common folk.

Be proactive and be the change you want to see in this community. Instead of trying to denigrate people like FTX and Swkoll, who really do care and who have put a huge amount of their time and resources into hosting tournies and generally helping out, you can come up with workable and implementable solutions, and prove that you can carry them out. Imo if you seriously want to have a shot at getting people to vote for you as PC, you have to prove that you will do better, instead of only flinging mud at people who have contributed positively to the community and not offering/executing any solutions yourself.

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morax said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:

I left the "ladder team" recently for similar reasons in that the debates on what map is good or bad was endless, often with FTX or arch shooting down any suggestions because they want "evidence." Arch nor FTX has any mapping knowledge and has to outsource it to biass or Jip to evaluate, so it gets rather cumbersome to take orders from people who hardly do it themselves.

So, I was trying to sleep, but just for the record....

You said you were leaving because the level of work wasn’t high enough. And you didn’t want to talk without feedback.

I can’t believe someone would ever say wanting “evidence” is a bad thing? if we put a map untested into the pool and it’s broken that’s far worse than steady caution.

Was this because you were asked to back up why we should just instantly remove a map from the pool because it was “bad?”

I’m part of the team so it’s not really outsourcing, but I can’t recall needing to step into a discussion to provide some form of additional evaluation.

It sounds to me like you’re seriously preparing to make some shot at player councillor. You probably planned this whole thing out already. My personal opinions on the matter aside, any PC needs to remember two things:

  1. Communicate with integrity.
  2. Your opinions are not gospel.

FtX might not be tall enough to look over the podium, but when he speaks people typically don’t need to go back and double check it. You and I both have sat through when PC’s got rewarded for literally spending all their time in another game, so I hope this move isn’t just so you can change a ladder map or two.

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The main problem of tournaments is that it is difficult to gather those who want to, I help all Russian-speaking people to organize or briefly say "barker". But for about 2 years, there are no new active, non-toxic, non-title players. The problem is that now most players are overrated-so they are proud of their image, not a good game in the tournament. I want Morax's ideas to come true!

Even putting together an entertainment tournament for Russian-speaking streamers is a very difficult process of communication with the community, after which I do not go to the faf for a couple of weeks.

It seems to me that everything will work out if you play for avatars, and not for real money. The incentive to stand out attracts players, rather than the material one. This is just my personal experience.

Now I'm more involved in interacting with ru cartographers and encouraging them. So maybe Morax is right. That some TD's are doing something else... I'm an example of that. I want to apologize in advance. But I will try to somehow find new talents for 1300+ 1600+

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@archsimkat said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:

FTX has done a lot of work to make hosting tournies/showmatches on faflive a very smooth process, so take advantage of it. I don't think this needs to be said again, but you don't have to be a player councillor to host a tournament.

You seem to have a lot of very specific restrictions that you would like to see, so you can host a tourney with exactly those restrictions. There is nothing stopping you from hosting a tournament specifically for people who don't have the energy to spam too many games like demonstreamer, but have 500+ games, but who don't want to whore BOs either like those dirty 1900+ who unfairly play at a super high level, but who also aren't literal trash tier at under 1600. You know, a tourney for the common folk.

Be proactive and be the change you want to see in this community. Instead of trying to denigrate people like FTX and Swkoll, who really do care and who have put a huge amount of their time and resources into hosting tournies and generally helping out, you can come up with workable and implementable solutions, and prove that you can carry them out. Imo if you seriously want to have a shot at getting people to vote for you as PC, you have to prove that you will do better, instead of only flinging mud at people who have contributed positively to the community and not offering/executing any solutions yourself.

Learn your history, arch: I have done more work on the community and donated more personal money into this than both of them combined. You are young here in the community so I suppose this is not known, but sure I will go ahead and run as PC and we can settle this that way by showing who actually gets support.

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@biass said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:

morax said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:

I left the "ladder team" recently for similar reasons in that the debates on what map is good or bad was endless, often with FTX or arch shooting down any suggestions because they want "evidence." Arch nor FTX has any mapping knowledge and has to outsource it to biass or Jip to evaluate, so it gets rather cumbersome to take orders from people who hardly do it themselves.

So, I was trying to sleep, but just for the record....

You said you were leaving because the level of work wasn’t high enough. And you didn’t want to talk without feedback.

I can’t believe someone would ever say wanting “evidence” is a bad thing? if we put a map untested into the pool and it’s broken that’s far worse than steady caution.

Was this because you were asked to back up why we should just instantly remove a map from the pool because it was “bad?”

I’m part of the team so it’s not really outsourcing, but I can’t recall needing to step into a discussion to provide some form of additional evaluation.

It sounds to me like you’re seriously preparing to make some shot at player councillor. You probably planned this whole thing out already. My personal opinions on the matter aside, any PC needs to remember two things:

  1. Communicate with integrity.
  2. Your opinions are not gospel.

FtX might not be tall enough to look over the podium, but when he speaks people typically don’t need to go back and double check it. You and I both have sat through when PC’s got rewarded for literally spending all their time in another game, so I hope this move isn’t just so you can change a ladder map or two.

The "evidence" word was used as a joke because any time I did no one replied.

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What does it take to host a tournament?

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You know what would be cool, WWPC, I feel like everyone would be happy. Tournies for all brackets.

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Designing a Tournament:
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/1478/how-do-i-host-a-tournament

Part D describes expectations and abilities for TDs:
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/269/tournament-code-of-conduct

WWPC is one of those things that someone gets motivated to host once a year, then after a month it goes inactive. The TD needs to keep track of matchups where people can be massively inconsistent in showing up and also needs to continue to prod people to play it. If that active level of management doesn't happen, people forget about it and the TD stops regulating it. Then a new TD restarts it the next year in hopes that it will be different this time and the cycle continues.

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Well TBH WWPC should be automated, but might as well just implement a general tournament hosting framework as Thomas mentioned.

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@aulex said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:

Well TBH WWPC should be automated, but might as well just implement a general tournament hosting framework as Thomas mentioned.

Aulex, I ran WWPC for years, and in the beginning it was awesome, but over time people started to not be responsible and play matches, and kept forfeiting. It go old and people wanted something new, otherwise I would be happy to run it again.

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@robustness said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:

The main problem of tournaments is that it is difficult to gather those who want to, I help all Russian-speaking people to organize or briefly say "barker". But for about 2 years, there are no new active, non-toxic, non-title players. The problem is that now most players are overrated-so they are proud of their image, not a good game in the tournament. I want Morax's ideas to come true!

Even putting together an entertainment tournament for Russian-speaking streamers is a very difficult process of communication with the community, after which I do not go to the faf for a couple of weeks.

It seems to me that everything will work out if you play for avatars, and not for real money. The incentive to stand out attracts players, rather than the material one. This is just my personal experience.

Now I'm more involved in interacting with ru cartographers and encouraging them. So maybe Morax is right. That some TD's are doing something else... I'm an example of that. I want to apologize in advance. But I will try to somehow find new talents for 1300+ 1600+

A good starting point would be to convert some of the bilingual people like paralon, Petrie, mozy or Suzuji into TDs. I feel like the language barrier has an unnecessarily high impact on the community and there is far less overlap between ru and rest of the world. I guess it all starts with people actively trying to bridge these communities via bi-lingual tourneys for example. Putin tried this with his awassa tourney, I feel like at this point the initiative needs to come from FTX and the English speaking guys to actively including the Russians by offering default translations of all tourney descriptions (ladder league, lots, summer invitational) in Russian. I’m sure that there are russian community members willing to translate the texts, people just need to ask. Given the inconceivably high share of Russian speakers I really wonder how that hasn’t occurred to people before.

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@big-bennis-magic said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:

A good starting point would be to convert some of the bilingual people like paralon, Petrie, mozy or Suzuji into TDs.

+1

@robustness said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:

The main problem of tournaments is that it is difficult to gather those who want to, I help all Russian-speaking people to organize or briefly say "barker". But for about 2 years, there are no new active, non-toxic, non-title players. The problem is that now most players are overrated-so they are proud of their image, not a good game in the tournament.

There are a lot of players who get overrated and then don't play much because they want to keep their higher-than-deserved rating for ego... This negatively impacts participation in FAF tournaments as well as in regular ladder/TMM/global games. A good solution would be to increase players' rating sigma (the value after the +/-) over time (something like an additional 1 or 2 sigma per day could be good). That way, it would incentivize people to keep playing to keep their rating up, and it would allow rusty players who haven't played in a while an easier transition back to FAF.

@robustness said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:

It seems to me that everything will work out if you play for avatars, and not for real money. The incentive to stand out attracts players, rather than the material one. This is just my personal experience.

Tournaments with real money rewards make greater incentive for people to be more invested/reliable, but also to try to manipulate their rating. So, perhaps real money tournaments should have stricter anti-smurf/anti-rating-manipulation standards than tournaments that just offer avatars and not money. I do think more avatar-only tournaments might be a good way to have more mid-level FAF tournaments with relatively less smurfing.

Also, if you guys want more active mid-level tournaments, perhaps you should coordinate more with the promotions team... I'm sure they'd be willing to have some news posts related to making more FAF tournaments happen (perhaps including a post related to getting more people to become TD's)...