A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community

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@morax said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:

Last point, though, biass, have you played ANY ladder games in the past year or so? I can hardly believe you cannot get less than a few matches a week. I see Electrician and some other Oceania folks playing plenty, so what gives?

Last time I really felt a desire to improve at the game, I got put against Archsimkat (+500 rating)
I then searched for roughly 6 hours straight, to get Archsimkat again.

It's possible to get it done if I really wanted to put time in (and inverted my work schedule) but I rather just play some global games when my friends are playing and focus on other stuff. Don't think I am obligated to play the game even if I am a councilor though, Refreshing my knowlege on the balance doesnt help me resolve IP law, or cover for AFK councilors.

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To be honest the only issue I see is that there is a lack of TD's. It's not like Ftx is opposed to events cattering to not tip top level players. After all he is hosting LoTS and the ladder league tourneys now, one event for top 10 and the other for 1.8k+. The other tourneys we have are hosted mainly by Swkoll who is an individual generous enough to spend both his money and a LOT of time to get some high level tourneys going and it's much appreciated but you can't hold it up against him that he is hosting tourneys for high ranked play and not mid-high, it's his decision. Then again, there was holiday tourney which was quite a success with a lot of sign ups and the tourney itself was promoted and covered so the infrastructure, even if it's not the best, is there, equally for mid and high level tourneys. The problem is that there aren't enough people wanting to host tourneys. I don't see how changing PC would even change that, what would happen? You would host them instead of LoTS/ladder league tourney? Why not do it now? Well, of course you want to participate in them, that's perfectly understandable. So the only solution it seems is to get more TD's to host more tourneys, mostly lower rated ones since we already have LoTS, and Swkoll's Invitationals for high level play. So that's where you should focus your attention instead of complaining that Ftx doesn't host more tourneys for mid and lower rated players

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I look at this way: There is a lack of TDs because people either do not want to work on FAF events or they are not willing to work with FTX

This is similar to there being VERY little people on the moderation team while Gorton was around because he himself was an awful moderator. Now that Gieb is in place - a much better manager - there are plenty of mods joining.

The real answer? I do not know, but i for one did not really enjoy hosting LoTS Group last year because the system was overly-complex and frustratingly long. The events tend to still go on way way too long and it makes the job of sitting around waiting forever unappealing to others who basically get a "thanks for hosting" and that is all.

I left the "ladder team" recently for similar reasons in that the debates on what map is good or bad was endless, often with FTX or arch shooting down any suggestions because they want "evidence." Arch nor FTX has any mapping knowledge and has to outsource it to biass or Jip to evaluate, so it gets rather cumbersome to take orders from people who hardly do it themselves.

I think it is great that FTX takes polls on opinions of this material, but in the end there are not really enough people with experience to make that valid. In the REAL world data sources are scrutinized for this kind of conclusions, and it makes me less than willing to actually work for someone who practices it.

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Yes, it may not be very easy to TD for LoTS but there are very FEW restrictions on hosting your own tourneys for mid - low rated players. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else to organize such events and changing PC won't do anything. The truth is that there are just very few mid rated players that are passionate enough with FAF AND tourneys that they are willing to host tourneys for that segment of players.

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How can you talk about using real world data sources and then write a post that has no concrete suggestions on how to move from X to Y to make things more efficient. In a real world consulting report, that would get you fired.

There is nothing here about improving my managing of TDs, there is nothing here about improving the design of LotS, there is nothing here about improving matchmaker team, and there is nothing here about utilizing better data points in my decision-making than what I already do.

The first I don't even know what you expect me to do. I couldn't be more off hands unless I just started giving money to people saying they were entertaining the idea of making a tournament. I also couldn't be more available to give input on tournaments unless I was an auto response spam bot.

The second what is the solution here? Do you want me to make LotS a 4 player tournament so TDs can simply go to bed after a hard 3 hours? BO1 games are not an option in a major competitive format so the only option available for you here is to lower the tournament player pool size. But you also want to encourage players that are at lower levels to play the game and reach higher levels, so how is that going to happen when LotS is open to the same 8 people year after year?

Matchmaker team I also have no idea what your problem or solution is supposed to be. Is the problem that me nor arch are mappers? Is being a mapper more important than understanding the game and how map structure impacts game behavior? Is it the same? If so, does that mean you need to be both a mapper and a high level player in order to design ladder pools? Do you recognize that restricts the pool of members to like 3 people which aren't even interested in working together let alone on ladder? I'm already having a tough time getting active players to help with matchmaker, how would adding MORE restrictions improve anything.

What data am I supposed to use from the real world for my decisions, genuinely curious. I look at tournaments in other games to gather input on how to improve FAF tournaments. I utilize FAF data dumps and polls when they're necessary for FAF decisions. Am I supposed to email Blizzard or Microsoft for their player data so I can make better decisions here or what?

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@tagada said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:

Yes, it may not be very easy to TD for LoTS but there are very FEW restrictions on hosting your own tourneys for mid - low rated players. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else to organize such events and changing PC won't do anything. The truth is that there are just very few mid rated players that are passionate enough with FAF AND tourneys that they are willing to host tourneys for that segment of players.

This may be true, and if that is the case then yes, it is a give up on my end. I would be out of ideas too but the question is why? I used to see a lot of tourneys at all levels such as the "Greenio amateur series" that would spotlight up and coming players.

For me, I think there has been such a lack of them in recent years and the promotion does not help, either. IF you think I am wrong, please show some evidence of a recent tourney of that nature where people simply "did not care" as you suggest.

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@ftxcommando said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:

How can you talk about using real world data sources and then write a post that has no concrete suggestions on how to move from X to Y to make things more efficient. In a real world consulting report, that would get you fired.

There is nothing here about improving my managing of TDs, there is nothing here about improving the design of LotS, there is nothing here about improving matchmaker team, and there is nothing here about utilizing better data points in my decision-making than what I already do.

The first I don't even know what you expect me to do. I couldn't be more off hands unless I just started giving money to people saying they were entertaining the idea of making a tournament. I also couldn't be more available to give input on tournaments unless I was an auto response spam bot.

The second what is the solution here? Do you want me to make LotS a 4 player tournament so TDs can simply go to bed after a hard 3 hours? BO1 games are not an option in a major competitive format so the only option available for you here is to lower the tournament player pool size. But you also want to encourage players that are at lower levels to play the game and reach higher levels, so how is that going to happen when LotS is open to the same 8 people year after year?

Matchmaker team I also have no idea what your problem or solution is supposed to be. Is the problem that me nor arch are mappers? Is being a mapper more important than understanding the game and how map structure impacts game behavior? Is it the same? If so, does that mean you need to be both a mapper and a high level player in order to design ladder pools? Do you recognize that restricts the pool of members to like 3 people which aren't even interested in working together let alone on ladder? I'm already having a tough time getting active players to help with matchmaker, how would adding MORE restrictions improve anything.

What data am I supposed to use from the real world for my decisions, genuinely curious. I look at tournaments in other games to gather input on how to improve FAF tournaments. I utilize FAF data dumps and polls when they're necessary for FAF decisions. Am I supposed to email Blizzard or Microsoft for their player data so I can make better decisions here or what?

Where is the ladder survey you took from 2 years ago? I need to read that again to give you proper feedback here.

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@morax said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:

For me, I think there has been such a lack of them in recent years and the promotion does not help, either. IF you think I am wrong, please show some evidence of a recent tourney of that nature where people simply "did not care" as you suggest.

Wym "did not care"?

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By the way, the sum up of this thread thus far: no one is interested and they don't need to be, although most of you are on the balance, moderation, and player council teams. It seems utterly crap that people with positions of power get to use the "we don't care excuse " over and over.

Please continue posting in this manner as it will help my case with the interested parties.

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Wym we do not care? XDD It's like, oh you are choosing to host 1 tourney and it's LoTS instead of a tourney for 1.6k's? Shame on you Ftx.
The only thing that comes out of this thread is : There is a problem eg. Not enough TD's overall and those that are willing to host low - mid - lower high rated tourneys in particular. How do you propose we solve such an issue? There has been 0 suggestions, just whining. It's not like Ftx did not try to tackle this problem, it;s just a hard one with no obvious solutions.

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@ftxcommando said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:

https://forums.faforever.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19432

You tried to quantify it all rather use open-ended responses for situations.

Let me ask you, how many people in the lower tiers would reply "20x20 too annoying to play because big" as a response or "i don't like emerald crater because it is a stupid map that is boring" source: https://forum.faforever.com/topic/1530/emerald-craters/15

You don't have much real empathy for understanding situations with conversation from what I see in your decision-making for something with this much impact, spare maybe LoTS because there is a ton of money thrown at it. I have seen you write WAY MORE detailed posts about tourney structure to appeal to that event alone than anything.

If you could actually use some real, written feedback to these surveys I would like to see that.

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@morax said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:

By the way, the sum up of this thread thus far: no one is interested and they don't need to be, although most of you are on the balance, moderation, and player council teams. It seems utterly crap that people with positions of power get to use the "we don't care excuse " over and over.

Please continue posting in this manner as it will help my case with the interested parties.

Ah yes, I am sure that Ftx and others like me do not care at all and don't do anything, it's not like how Ftx cooridantes, prepares rule sets that can be set by any new TD so it's easier for them, gets some streamer/caster to cover a tourney etc. On the other hand I also contribute as I can, eg. I offer my lessons as prizes for such tourneys so ...

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There was a written feedback segment in that survey. I didn't post the results because it doesn't help people to post 250 written messages, half of which are in Russian. I looked through each and every comment there and had the Russian ones translated. It's why I wanted to make videos/guides for traditional lower level ladder maps in the <300 pool as that was a suggestion in the feedback section.

Honestly I feel like if I posted those comments I'd be sitting here reading people explain how I did it as an ego-trip because most of them were just explaining people were grateful for FAF, the people working on it, and that people continue to try to make it better.

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Just make a google doc or something and log it somewhere. You don't need to read it all but it would be interesting to see more detailed responses.

Can someone answer me, though, when was the last ~1800-ish event? What happened?

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https://forum.faforever.com/topic/825/holiday-tournament/28

Edit: I read ~ as <.

I'm going to assume you mean ~1600 not ~1800 because all you need to participate in the bimonthly league series is 1800 rating. The last ~1600 tournament I have no idea, it was probably one of the Russian streamed 2v2 events.

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FTX has done a lot of work to make hosting tournies/showmatches on faflive a very smooth process, so take advantage of it. I don't think this needs to be said again, but you don't have to be a player councillor to host a tournament.

You seem to have a lot of very specific restrictions that you would like to see, so you can host a tourney with exactly those restrictions. There is nothing stopping you from hosting a tournament specifically for people who don't have the energy to spam too many games like demonstreamer, but have 500+ games, but who don't want to whore BOs either like those dirty 1900+ who unfairly play at a super high level, but who also aren't literal trash tier at under 1600. You know, a tourney for the common folk.

Be proactive and be the change you want to see in this community. Instead of trying to denigrate people like FTX and Swkoll, who really do care and who have put a huge amount of their time and resources into hosting tournies and generally helping out, you can come up with workable and implementable solutions, and prove that you can carry them out. Imo if you seriously want to have a shot at getting people to vote for you as PC, you have to prove that you will do better, instead of only flinging mud at people who have contributed positively to the community and not offering/executing any solutions yourself.

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morax said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:

I left the "ladder team" recently for similar reasons in that the debates on what map is good or bad was endless, often with FTX or arch shooting down any suggestions because they want "evidence." Arch nor FTX has any mapping knowledge and has to outsource it to biass or Jip to evaluate, so it gets rather cumbersome to take orders from people who hardly do it themselves.

So, I was trying to sleep, but just for the record....

You said you were leaving because the level of work wasn’t high enough. And you didn’t want to talk without feedback.

I can’t believe someone would ever say wanting “evidence” is a bad thing? if we put a map untested into the pool and it’s broken that’s far worse than steady caution.

Was this because you were asked to back up why we should just instantly remove a map from the pool because it was “bad?”

I’m part of the team so it’s not really outsourcing, but I can’t recall needing to step into a discussion to provide some form of additional evaluation.

It sounds to me like you’re seriously preparing to make some shot at player councillor. You probably planned this whole thing out already. My personal opinions on the matter aside, any PC needs to remember two things:

  1. Communicate with integrity.
  2. Your opinions are not gospel.

FtX might not be tall enough to look over the podium, but when he speaks people typically don’t need to go back and double check it. You and I both have sat through when PC’s got rewarded for literally spending all their time in another game, so I hope this move isn’t just so you can change a ladder map or two.

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The main problem of tournaments is that it is difficult to gather those who want to, I help all Russian-speaking people to organize or briefly say "barker". But for about 2 years, there are no new active, non-toxic, non-title players. The problem is that now most players are overrated-so they are proud of their image, not a good game in the tournament. I want Morax's ideas to come true!

Even putting together an entertainment tournament for Russian-speaking streamers is a very difficult process of communication with the community, after which I do not go to the faf for a couple of weeks.

It seems to me that everything will work out if you play for avatars, and not for real money. The incentive to stand out attracts players, rather than the material one. This is just my personal experience.

Now I'm more involved in interacting with ru cartographers and encouraging them. So maybe Morax is right. That some TD's are doing something else... I'm an example of that. I want to apologize in advance. But I will try to somehow find new talents for 1300+ 1600+

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@archsimkat said in A plea for the Lack of Events for "2nd Rate" "Common Folk" & The Community:

FTX has done a lot of work to make hosting tournies/showmatches on faflive a very smooth process, so take advantage of it. I don't think this needs to be said again, but you don't have to be a player councillor to host a tournament.

You seem to have a lot of very specific restrictions that you would like to see, so you can host a tourney with exactly those restrictions. There is nothing stopping you from hosting a tournament specifically for people who don't have the energy to spam too many games like demonstreamer, but have 500+ games, but who don't want to whore BOs either like those dirty 1900+ who unfairly play at a super high level, but who also aren't literal trash tier at under 1600. You know, a tourney for the common folk.

Be proactive and be the change you want to see in this community. Instead of trying to denigrate people like FTX and Swkoll, who really do care and who have put a huge amount of their time and resources into hosting tournies and generally helping out, you can come up with workable and implementable solutions, and prove that you can carry them out. Imo if you seriously want to have a shot at getting people to vote for you as PC, you have to prove that you will do better, instead of only flinging mud at people who have contributed positively to the community and not offering/executing any solutions yourself.

Learn your history, arch: I have done more work on the community and donated more personal money into this than both of them combined. You are young here in the community so I suppose this is not known, but sure I will go ahead and run as PC and we can settle this that way by showing who actually gets support.