Make t3 navy more exciting!?!

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Yeah, Valki said groundfiring subs is part of the meta. You incorrectly read that as "significantly shaping" the meta. Things can also be a small part of the meta. And the point here is that they are a small part, because subs suck, because groundfire exists.

I saw your argument, and I don't think it would make game balance worse. You're saying, we make a change that BUFFS subs, but they are still vulnerable to torps, so air and torps become more important because that will now be the way you have to counter them. Well, that's the point. Removing groundfire still only makes subs more viable, because you CURRENTLY can torp them just as easily. It doesn't sound like you think removing groundfire would make subs OP, just that this would only help make subs slightly more viable. Well, slightly more viable is better than zero more viable, when they are already significantly underpowered...and giving a small buff to an underpowered unit will improve balance rather than make it worse.

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@turinturambar it helps to @[username] to make clear who you reply to.

No matter how big or small the problem, everyone agrees sub ground-fire is silly.

If subs are rendered immune to ground-fire, then this could massively alter the meta, even if it is in a desirable way. Making more changes at the same time only complicates things. So in patch N you make subs immune to ground-fire, in patch N+1 you revisit naval to see how things are and what now needs fixing.

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how did you get to litterally everyone?

Forumpros doing balance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SJhLlucMXE .
When a canis player remembers to build more than 3 units https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hjp8xJHuyA .

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By injecting the faf superiority complex into this discussion where 80% of the dudes for removing the groundfire are wanting it removed cuz muh realism and muh faf superior to other games.

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Just do the ASF armour solution. Give T3 Subs and Altantis something to heavily reduce damage frim battleship fire.

*And increase speed of T1 Subs maybe I don’t know

I’m a shitty 1k Global. Any balance or gameplay suggestions should be understood or taken as such.

Project Head and current Owner/Manager of SCTA Project

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Everybody agrees valki is wrong

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Isn't every aircraft in faf vtol? Anything vtol can hover bomb. While your hovering, your also completely helpless to aa.

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@thewheelie said in Make t3 navy more exciting!?!:

Hoverbombing bombers is more unrealistic than groundfiring subs and instead of 1 in every 200 games it happens 1 in every 2 games. Waiting for the HOVERBOMBING IS BROKEN AND UNREALISTIC thread, thanks

Out of fuel planes hovering slowly instead of crashing to the ground is more unrealistic than groundfiring subs, and it happens in every game where someone (cough Tagada) uses select all fighters every time there is a single bomber somewhere. Waiting for the OUT OF FUEL PLANES SHOULD INSTANTLY CRASH thread, thanks

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I'm just sitting here in the "I think the navy side of the game is probably the best balanced segment of the game" audience shocked that people are talking about it needing some total overhaul.

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ftxcommando said in Make t3 navy more exciting!?!:

I'm just sitting here in the "I think the navy side of the game is probably the best balanced segment of the game" audience shocked that people are talking about it needing some total overhaul.

It might be relatively balanced, but it's boring af to watch and to play. You just spam the same unit and there's no real potential for plays.

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? There is potential for plays, people are just boring and unwilling to take risks which often ends up with no one committing until they feel like they have over 85% chance to win the fight. So instead of playing aggressive and microing few frigates or 1-2 destros they wait until they can force engagement that will surely go their way.

Like I never felt constricted by the navy balance, if anything I felt that I can use all the tools I have no matter how stupid the idea.
It all just came to working it out instead of smashing my head into keyboard like monkey with attack move or waiting for the perfect chance to strike like 90% of players. Just be willing to duke it out like a man and your navy game won't be nearly as boring(though get ready to get smashed too if you lose all reclaim).

Hell, I loved t1 sub rush if I were to frig crush my opponent. Shit often scored me massive BP advantage, forced opponent to make their own sub/torp launcher and then after that I could go harass some mexes.

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@femtozetta said in Make t3 navy more exciting!?!:

You just spam the same unit and there's no real potential for plays.

Imo this is completely off the mark. Unless you're playing a map like intertemporal, you certainly don't just "spam some unit". Navy is the only domain where every unit retains some role throughout the course of the game. This is not the case for land and air, where you usually have obsolete units you never need to build again when you reach a higher tier. Naval battles are super interesting because, with the possible exception of maybe the t1 sub, no unit is obsolete, and since every unit fulfills a different niche, you need to adjust your composition based on changing situations. The possible addition of hover makes naval naval compositions and battles even more interesting. Naval battles are exciting and don't need to be reworked, especially in the way suggested so far in this thread.

Also, I really don't understand this argument for buffing t2/t3 navy just because t1 navy is more cost efficient if you just look at raw hp/dps to mass stats. I will point out, for the people advancing this argument, that t1 direct fire land has much higher dps per mass than t2 and t3 land, and inties have higher hp per mass than asf. Naive stat comparisons like this, with all context removed, just don't work, so it would be real nice if people stopped doing them.

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Its a piece of trivia Arch, last time I did the math actually the “same” decrease in efficiency across all 3 Terrain type.

I’m a shitty 1k Global. Any balance or gameplay suggestions should be understood or taken as such.

Project Head and current Owner/Manager of SCTA Project

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They might not become obsolete with higher tech, but you only have 3 main units overall at T3: frigate, destro, battleship. I don't think it's interesting when those 3 units are 95% of what is built (well I guess that includes cruisers too, but they are not for fighting navy). No subs feel relevant because torp bombers crush them so easily and cost effectively.
I haven't really seen it being different in high level play (on Seton's mostly).
I'l pay some more attention to it though, since I don't really have any specific data or examples on it, so maybe I'm wrong.

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Aside from main navy units of frig destro bs

Uef has neptunes shieldboats coopers
Cybran has stealth boat t2 sub
Aeon has t2 shield t2 sub tempest
Sera has t3 shield

And thats not counting situational units like atlantis, t3 sub, missile cruiser

Meanwhile air balance

Asf

Now compare which list is bigger

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So Farms is saying air is boring because it has few units? Sure, more faction diversity might be interesting... well, Aeon already has swifties, mercies and restorers.

Back to navy, bias said:

Submarines are entirely boring units, they have no real solid mechanics associated with them

So make them interesting. Add a "stealth" button like the Selen and let them lurk, maybe, then try luring your opponent's ships to your subs.

But it's kind of hard to make "hide and seek" tactics work given the pace of the game, plus the way target locks work through the fog of war.

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I´ve just read all the tread.

I try to win my pound before T3 tech. IMO the sooner you win navy the sooner you gonna help mid. I dont like naval build-up for 20 min, i try to harrass everytime i can

I´ve seen people lose pound cause when they gonna place the 1st shipyard or finish the 1st or second boat and there is already enemy subs in the water (im 1000 elo btw), if i go water on seutons and i scout and find no early shipyard im 100% rushing with subs

If my rush dosent work i go heavy subs naval composition i usually go cybran or seraphin, IMO subs are kings, you can pick the sides of the enemy formation and sink 3 to 6 ships without they even noticing using T3 subs/barracudas or T2 navy with stealth boats

People say that UEF batteship is the best but Cybran Batleship can rekt them, just dont let your battleship be set still and the UEF will miss its volley.
IMO cybran and Sera are the best navys, cybran stealth is just Trololol and it feels good to pull off, the t3 Torp def are the most OP thing ever (i think it needs nerf), the t3 sera subs rek everything i use them as frontline with frigates and cruisers and few destroyers behind in case i get torp bombed, and the fact i can make the subs go to the surface to kill the torps is great and brings tears of joy to my eyes 😃

Also i´ve noticed that Sera aircraft carrier has ground missiles, is it the only aircraft carrier that does this?

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Imo T3 Navy starts to be useful when you actually win navy, and costs an absurd amount of mass. So much that I'd rather win at T2 straight, until I get swarmed with T3 air bullshit.

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@archsimkat It would be great if T1 subs retained a role similar to T1 Frigate but underwater.

T1 subs as cheap raiding units would also be pretty cool, and T2 subs are the defensive/offensive counter because they have more anti torpedo, but that spamming T1 subs is more worth it damage wise than T2 subs, similar to frigates spam being better than getting a single T2 destroyer.