Monkey Lord - roleless T4 that needs a Buff

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I am 99% sure that something like this is not supported by the engine.

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It is supported 🙂 , but it would break on all of my maps where I use the 'unpathable' terrain type to cover some holes in the mountains that allow units to get on top 🙂
edit: I believe Madmax even made a unit as part of a tournament for that. Its in the vault

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Why would a 10k energy cloak toggle not work?

It prevents the Monkeylord from being discovered randomly by ASF, bombers, and raiders. Now it remains invisible until it approaches your omni radar, unless the opponent has set up a good T3 air scout patrol.

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@Tagada said in Monkey Lord - roleless T4 that needs a Buff:

I am 99% sure that something like this is not supported by the engine.

It is and is not. But it can be done. I do it in SCTA even

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Good to hear, the problem is that maps are not designed around this feature so it's not really a feasible solution anyways.

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@Jip can confirm this is the case, it works right up until unpathable terrain type is used then its broken, admittedly the majority of maps don't use terrain types, until you start getting to the top 10% of maps it's certainly a case of the edge cases defining the rule tho. Edit I am thinking of adding that ability to all "spider tanks" in my mod at some point........ soon tm lol

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I like a speed buff of ~ 8% and a bt reduction of 20%.

That would significantly increase its value as a surprise weapon without increasing its combat effectiveness a lot so it doesn’t gain mass efficiency vs other units but gets stronger at its actual role.

I wouldn’t change turret turn speed because it’s got a big ‘ol laser on its back and lore wise I think it makes sense this thing turns slowly.

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the monkeylord couldn't be as strong as other experimentals because the brick and loyalist were directly superior to other races comparable ground BEFORE nerfs, Now the monkeylords escort units are weaker and it has actually received a price and build time increase making its role more clouded as per original post, i would support a health and price increase to balance the monkeylord better not a dubious stealth or movement speed buff

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@big-bennis-magic said in Monkey Lord - roleless T4 that needs a Buff:

I like a speed buff of ~ 8% and a bt reduction of 20%.
That would significantly increase its value as a surprise weapon without increasing its combat effectiveness a lot so it doesn’t gain mass efficiency vs other units but gets stronger at its actual role.
I wouldn’t change turret turn speed because it’s got a big ‘ol laser on its back and lore wise I think it makes sense this thing turns slowly.

Agreed, the biggest strenghts of the Monkeylord is it surprise factor and its (possible) spammability. Improve on those aspects and you make the ML more usefull without making it more powerful. Making it less expensive would be a good idea as well imo

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@tagada kindda lost the track but if you speak about the cloak spider than it's perfectly supported by the engine,can take a look at total mayhem,some units have the same mechanic and it works just fine 🙂

"I am 99% sure that something like this is not supported by the engine."

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@arran said in Monkey Lord - roleless T4 that needs a Buff:

If, and I stress IF, the Monkeylord is underpowered, perhaps a solution would be allowing it to climb steeper terrain (like a spider can) to allow for more tactical deployment?

Was referring to this.

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So elaborate, basically we'd have to give monkeylord a unique footprint. For sake of example 4 by 4 Amphib. And Make sure no other mobile unit is inheriting. But each additional footprint added adds additional stress on gamepathfinder due to nature of how the game does pathfinding/pathfinds.

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Honestly I hate to be blunt, but I think ML scaling terrain is a horrible idea balance and gameplay wise. 75% of the maps it wont make a difference, and on like 10% of the maps it will be OP as all fuck. It will never be possible to balance properly like that, and its something that is very couther-intuitive gameplay wise.

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Honestly I never proposed to make it able to walk across terrain. I think it’s too weak at what it’s supposed to be good at and therefore would like it to be buffed. In terms of mass efficiency versus perfectly microed bricks etc: I think we can discard these sandbox scenarios as real games almost all of the time are much more messy scenarios and a ml will almost always have to deal with a big mix of t1 t2 and t3 with shields and of and possible acu OCs and I think it’s fairly hard to argue balance on the basis of a few extremely simplified sets of units and infinite attention to micro them. In general I think that these balance debates should be based on ingame experience and gut feeling by top players, faf is just too complex and we can’t possible write up all the factors that go into our opinion that is based on our gut feeling.

Now my gut feeling and experience tells me that the ML is currently underpowered and needs a buff, and I tried to explain why I think so in my OP. And I think that a BT buff of 25% and ms increase of say 5% could be a nice buff. Any other opinions on that?

Anyone aware of a ML that has actually worked in a high level game? I can’t really remember any in the last year...

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After reading the other "points of imbalance" thread my opinion is unchanged that it doesn't have much of a role anymore. I'll quote Tagada:
"Few more things to consider: The micro that ML requires is basically going into range of bricks while turning and starting running away at the same time so the bricks can easily disengage and thus buy the defending player a lot of time to make more units, finish his own experimental, make pds air or w/e. So if you want to attack with ML, then ML looses 100% of the time making it an inefficient investment mass for mass."
So, it's possible to make a defensive ML if you need to rush a t4 to counter an incoming enemy t4, but other than that it doesn't seem to have much use. And generally speaking you are better off making other, more mass efficient units to counter the t4, so it it seems to really have only that use, when the lower build time is critical. And it has to be a map/situation where pd won't work because pd have very low build time per dps compared to t3 units. Even cybran t2 pd with an equivalent dps, have very similar build time, mass cost and much lower energy cost, but a far better range than a ML, so you have to need the mobility to defend multiple critical areas.

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Okay, this idea is probably totally broken, but imagine this:
ML loses 10k health but gains a 10k area shield for protecting nearby units.
ML still only has personal stealth, but it can project both cloak and stealth to nearby units (at a huge energy cost).

Essentially, it's still a trash experimental on its own, but a ML fielded outside of omni range is a complete wildcard and you ought to send a T3 scout every so often to make sure it's not up to anything.
It'd be pretty hilarious if someone fired a Billy at a ML hiding a loyalist.

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@bellatrix said in Monkey Lord - roleless T4 that needs a Buff:

Okay, this idea is probably totally broken, but imagine this:
ML loses 10k health but gains a 10k area shield for protecting nearby units.
ML still only has personal stealth, but it can project both cloak and stealth to nearby units (at a huge energy cost).

Essentially, it's still a trash experimental on its own, but a ML fielded outside of omni range is a complete wildcard and you ought to send a T3 scout every so often to make sure it's not up to anything.
It'd be pretty hilarious if someone fired a Billy at a ML hiding a loyalist.

That might be a better idea for blackops/total mayhem than the base game.

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When we used to play the game everyone was scared of monkeylords and everybody built omni against it.

Was that ever the case in the real meta? - If so, can't you think of a buff to bring that fear back @archsimkat ?