Monkey Lord - roleless T4 that needs a Buff

I like the idea of a movement speed buff, and while we are at it could we consider increasing it's turret turn speed? The monkey is especially frustrating when it is attacking different useless targets on opposite sides of it, which require a very long time for the turret to turn. This is especially critical when you are just getting in range of what you really want to attack (e.g. acu) with a move command but it takes an extra 5 seconds to actually start attacking because it was focusing on some t1 tanks behind it.

https://replay.faforever.com/14222198
https://replay.faforever.com/14222278
Replays for anyone who would like to see just how incredibly easy it is to [edit: receive a Monkeylord mass donation] with an equivalent amount of mass invested into a few bricks and shields, with and without any acu overcharge.

If, and I stress IF, the Monkeylord is underpowered, perhaps a solution would be allowing it to climb steeper terrain (like a spider can) to allow for more tactical deployment?

@Arran sounds like a nightmare...

I am 99% sure that something like this is not supported by the engine.

It is supported , but it would break on all of my maps where I use the 'unpathable' terrain type to cover some holes in the mountains that allow units to get on top
edit: I believe Madmax even made a unit as part of a tournament for that. Its in the vault

Why would a 10k energy cloak toggle not work?

It prevents the Monkeylord from being discovered randomly by ASF, bombers, and raiders. Now it remains invisible until it approaches your omni radar, unless the opponent has set up a good T3 air scout patrol.

@Tagada said in Monkey Lord - roleless T4 that needs a Buff:

I am 99% sure that something like this is not supported by the engine.

It is and is not. But it can be done. I do it in SCTA even

Good to hear, the problem is that maps are not designed around this feature so it's not really a feasible solution anyways.

@Jip can confirm this is the case, it works right up until unpathable terrain type is used then its broken, admittedly the majority of maps don't use terrain types, until you start getting to the top 10% of maps it's certainly a case of the edge cases defining the rule tho. Edit I am thinking of adding that ability to all "spider tanks" in my mod at some point........ soon tm lol

I like a speed buff of ~ 8% and a bt reduction of 20%.

That would significantly increase its value as a surprise weapon without increasing its combat effectiveness a lot so it doesn’t gain mass efficiency vs other units but gets stronger at its actual role.

I wouldn’t change turret turn speed because it’s got a big ‘ol laser on its back and lore wise I think it makes sense this thing turns slowly.

the monkeylord couldn't be as strong as other experimentals because the brick and loyalist were directly superior to other races comparable ground BEFORE nerfs, Now the monkeylords escort units are weaker and it has actually received a price and build time increase making its role more clouded as per original post, i would support a health and price increase to balance the monkeylord better not a dubious stealth or movement speed buff

@big-bennis-magic said in Monkey Lord - roleless T4 that needs a Buff:

I like a speed buff of ~ 8% and a bt reduction of 20%.
That would significantly increase its value as a surprise weapon without increasing its combat effectiveness a lot so it doesn’t gain mass efficiency vs other units but gets stronger at its actual role.
I wouldn’t change turret turn speed because it’s got a big ‘ol laser on its back and lore wise I think it makes sense this thing turns slowly.

Agreed, the biggest strenghts of the Monkeylord is it surprise factor and its (possible) spammability. Improve on those aspects and you make the ML more usefull without making it more powerful. Making it less expensive would be a good idea as well imo

@tagada kindda lost the track but if you speak about the cloak spider than it's perfectly supported by the engine,can take a look at total mayhem,some units have the same mechanic and it works just fine

"I am 99% sure that something like this is not supported by the engine."

@arran said in Monkey Lord - roleless T4 that needs a Buff:

If, and I stress IF, the Monkeylord is underpowered, perhaps a solution would be allowing it to climb steeper terrain (like a spider can) to allow for more tactical deployment?

Was referring to this.

So elaborate, basically we'd have to give monkeylord a unique footprint. For sake of example 4 by 4 Amphib. And Make sure no other mobile unit is inheriting. But each additional footprint added adds additional stress on gamepathfinder due to nature of how the game does pathfinding/pathfinds.

Honestly I hate to be blunt, but I think ML scaling terrain is a horrible idea balance and gameplay wise. 75% of the maps it wont make a difference, and on like 10% of the maps it will be OP as all fuck. It will never be possible to balance properly like that, and its something that is very couther-intuitive gameplay wise.

Honestly I never proposed to make it able to walk across terrain. I think it’s too weak at what it’s supposed to be good at and therefore would like it to be buffed. In terms of mass efficiency versus perfectly microed bricks etc: I think we can discard these sandbox scenarios as real games almost all of the time are much more messy scenarios and a ml will almost always have to deal with a big mix of t1 t2 and t3 with shields and of and possible acu OCs and I think it’s fairly hard to argue balance on the basis of a few extremely simplified sets of units and infinite attention to micro them. In general I think that these balance debates should be based on ingame experience and gut feeling by top players, faf is just too complex and we can’t possible write up all the factors that go into our opinion that is based on our gut feeling.

Now my gut feeling and experience tells me that the ML is currently underpowered and needs a buff, and I tried to explain why I think so in my OP. And I think that a BT buff of 25% and ms increase of say 5% could be a nice buff. Any other opinions on that?

Anyone aware of a ML that has actually worked in a high level game? I can’t really remember any in the last year...