About Neroxis map generator...

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I like the idea of map gen in ladder because it does not allow people who have PhDs in build orders to reign supreme.

I like having actual battles in my games rather thinking about how to survive first bomber and the game going to shit in less then 5 minutes.

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@Sir-Prize said in About Neroxis map generator...:

Why an entirely new ladder and pool?

TMM is still lacking the casual element which was a big part of the design. The 2v2 queue we added is still pretty laddery because it has its own rating. I want to see at least one queue that uses global rating so new players can use it to "get out of the grey." Something that has the casual feel of “all welcome” games. It seems that there wouldn’t be as much resistance to adding mapgen to that sort of a queue, so it just feels like a nice way to test out the idea.

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Fair enough, a global queue does make some sense when you put it like that. I still slightly worry about splitting player bases and making it harder to fill games overall but in fairness the moment you're not talking about 1v1s I probably should butt out of the conversation due to a total lack of knowledge.

On a (possibly) related note, what's the latest with the ladder divisions/hiding matchmaker ratings?

@harzer99 said in About Neroxis map generator...:

take into consideration that usually only the people say something that want change. To get the opinion of the others we would need to introduce it and get feedback then.

This is exactly what I'm suggesting. I will say that when map pool sizes have changed in the past there's always been some debate among higher level players, although they overwhelmingly preferred larger pools (keyser basically stopped laddering when the pool got big again). The only argument I'm seeing against mapgen is from people who are worried for newbs (rightly, imo) - but no one is suggesting this for newb map pools.

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Small map pool = everyone has a build order for all maps => bo no longer has impact on the result of the game

Large map pool = some players have build orders on some maps => better prepped player wins

Mapgen = nobody has a buildorder on any maps => better bo improv wins

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@Blodir said in About Neroxis map generator...:

Small map pool = everyone has a build order for all maps => bo no longer has impact on the result of the game
Large map pool = some players have build orders on some maps => better prepped player wins

This was/is why I prefer a small pool, but I'm in a minority and it's obvious small pool kills your level ladder play 💔

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let's not forget that 1v1 is already considered a competitive gameplay

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I leave the decision for map gen for ladder up to arch. Of course it has development requirements etc but if he wants it for ladder I’ll trust his opinion.

Ultimately I’d rather run a dual queue with map gen and curated ladder maps both operating with the same rating system.

With regards to tmm, I see no need for implementing map gen in those formats. Most reasonings here hold no real sway because:

  1. Tons of new maps that saw near zero competitive play exist for these formats
  2. The format has hardly exists long enough for map fatigue to set in
  3. Map gen itself is a lot less tested for these formats
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If the infrastrucutre is being developed anyway we could indroce a feature queue, which would host a smapp mappool/ single map with a theme. One rotation it could be generated maps, next one only setons 4v4 etc. . It should be unranked and balanced by 1v1 or 2v2 rating.
On the one hand it would be great for testing how the playerbase reacts to experimental maps, but also feature certain maps to a broader audience. Also I would suggest a weekly rotation, due to the small size of the pool.

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random map generator is the only good thing thats happend to faf in forever

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The ICE adapter disagrees.

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that is the only reason I dont play ladder, ppl simply know all ins and outs of maps, and as a new player I cant compete with that

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@karlhoffman At lower levels (under 500 rating) people make so many mistakes that you can win even with a bad build order. I played against FLOOD once on Twin Rivers, he was AFK for the first 100 seconds of the match. The match lasted over an hour. I had 700 rating, he had about 1000. I didn't even know that he had been AFK until I saw the score screen.

Lower-rated players make so many mistakes. Big ones, small ones. There is plenty of room for an imperfect player to win lots of games against other low-rated players.

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@arma473 making mistakes doesnt change the fact that ppl who played map before will know better where to put defence/offence, how to reclaim better and how to eco better

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Map knowledge is mostly negligible until you get in the top 50 or so. You are vastly overestimating people's map knowledge advantage.

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@femtozetta said in About Neroxis map generator...:

Map knowledge is mostly negligible until you get in the top 50 or so. You are vastly overestimating people's map knowledge advantage.

I think map knowledge counts for heaps in the 1500 ish ladder matches. I can rehearse the build from a much better player, but my opponent cannot improvise it.

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If you’re 1500 and utilize map knowledge, it just means your dynamic game ability is shittier than the 1500 without the map knowledge. You’re both still 1500.

This isn’t sentons where people enter a rating ecosystem entirely separate from the rest of global rating and so there is a sharp disconnect. It’s ladder and you get put against a generally similar level of competency. The illusion that a 700 rated guy that can’t read basic maps will somehow be able to read random maps well is just that, an illusion to explain their rating/losses.

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The point is that only in high rating you will get to the point where you need to play a map a lot to defeat someone who played that map a lot because only up there the small differences matter.
Or are the few times you have to play a map on lower ratings to know what's up really such an issue and this is what you are talking about?

1500 is already top 80 btw, so pretty close to what I estimated.

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@femtozetta said in About Neroxis map generator...:

Map knowledge is mostly negligible until you get in the top 50 or so. You are vastly overestimating people's map knowledge advantage.

That's totally wrong. I have plenty of "build order wins" at the 1k level and having a good idea about the "meta" of various maps has at times helped me tremendously. Sniping a transport on a transport rush map is an example of that. It happens.

The key is what FtX wrote: if you're 1500, it means there are holes in your game. (Same for 1100, 900, 700, 500 etc. etc. etc.). At the 500 level, these holes are big enough to fly an Ahwassa through. Nobody who is around 500 rating should be afraid of going up against a 500-rated player. Fight it out and see what happens.

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The value of map knowledge is not relevant to the discussion.

Even if you’re missing both your hands and can’t actually play the game, the system will attempt to find you someone who is equally incapable.

If you’re new and don’t know maps, you’ll eventually get put with people who also don’t know maps, or are so bad in something else that it evens out.

It’s not a matter of not being able to compete, it’s a matter of not having the willpower to continue playing after losing a few games or not having a desire to improve.

Same goes with any matchmaking system, including ones that have random maps.

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Of course "build order wins" are a thing in every rating bracket, in fact I would say the impact of a build order is inversely proportional to your rating - that is to say learning a buildorder will have a larger impact on your performance on lower levels of play.

Btw nobody has to create buildorders, it's perfectly possible to improvise better buildorders than your competition's premade ones even at the highest level. You could just as well tell the high level players to "learn to play" as you may do to lower rating players.

It makes total sense that prepping would have a negative impact on many low level games. Like for instance a 1k player who has prepped 50% of the maps in the pool might be crushing half of his games while getting rekt in the other half. Ie. all of their games are unbalanced as the result.