Why would you have left FAF?


@FtXCommando said in Why would you have left FAF?:

Frankly I disagree with the notion this is going to create any sort of cultural impact. At higher levels, there is no room to curate players based on behavior. You basically play with the dudes you get and barring absurd toxicity that gets you banned, that's what it comes down to. Then the people slightly below the top level that regularly watch streams are going to see the high level players disregard the karma system or consider it a joke and mimic the exact same behavior.

Some people will always ape what the pros are doing, for sure, but I don't think that can be generalized.
Especially for the FAF playerbase, where a lot of people are fully grown adults with fully developed personalities, it seems unlikely to me that people would change their entire behavior just because "a pro did it" during a stream

I sure wouldn't look at it. If I want to curate a player, I look at their replay vault for what kind of games they play.

That is what I would have expected. A karma system just doesn't make sense at your level.

If there's no negative "warning this guy is mad toxic don't join this game" then what's the point of the system for new players.

I tried to explain that in my reply above.
The small stuff does matter, both the negative, as well as the positive. Culture change can be influenced by methods less extreme than the banhammer, and a karma system is such a proposed method.

Problem is FAF is self selecting so it's entirely up to the community to proactively create a culture around caring about karma rating, and we aren't big enough at higher levels of play to ever care about it.

Again, I'm not sure why all culture change has to come from the top. The Pros are essentially ambassadors for FAF, so they certainly have more of an impact on the culture than the average player, but even non pros are part of and can influence the culture.
And yes, it is up to the community to create a culture that cares about being more welcoming. In fact, that is what I am trying to do right now 😛

Best case scenario you have some "elo hell" where karma matters at <1000 or whatever rating and then suddenly no one ever gives a single care in the world about it.

That would be great! If karma mattered below 1k, and the system actually works as intended, that would be a huge success. Once somebody has a rank of 1k or above, he is already invested enough, that a couple bad experiences wont immediately turn him off the game altogether.

Another thing I just recalled, I really enjoy seeing Gyle casts where a guy quits because the game is over and then I go into the comment section and see a bunch of dudes mad because a guy didn't play a game to conclusion and consider it "poor sportsmanship in FAF." If we allow "experienced players" to go and rate players, I'm assuming it's possible to adjust karma without being in a game. In which case, I eagerly await the Gyle Audience Good Behavior (tm) witchhunts.

II would only allow the rating of a player after a game you yourself just took part in, just like it is implemented in most other games.

All in all, if the entrenched FAF playerbase is so toxic it drives away players, I fail to see how creating a system which in turn allows this toxic playerbase to go and rate players is the solution.

I don't think the entire FAF playerbase is toxic. It seems to me, we mostly have problems at the lower levels, and there it's only a problem because that's where people quit before becoming invested.
But even at those lower levels, it's mostly a couple of bad apples that cause the majority of problems. In extreme cases, a single player can ruin the game for 11 others, but most of those 11 are polite, or at least neutral, people.

If the entire playerbase were so toxic that a karma system could effectively be "inverted" i.e. the toxic players rank themselves positively and downrank everyone else, it would of course stand no chance.
If that were the case though, I would have left a long time ago.


New players will feel personally attacked when their karma goes down. If I got some negative karma points for some reason I didn't really understand, I wouldn't know what it meant, how to avoid it, or whether it was fair, whether I should feel personally attacked, or how hard it would be to get rid of. It would have been a very unpleasant experience for a new player. Since this is a thread about making new players feel welcome in our community we should always keep their experience in mind.


When did it start getting toxic? Back in the GPG days and early FAF there wasn't any toxic behaviour to speak of.

Is it just the wider "gamer culture" seeping into FAF or is it something else? As mentioned above the player base for FAF has got to be a lot older than most online games, so what the hell are a bunch of 40-year-olds doing acting like Rocket League players?


Did it start getting toxic? I have literally never been part of a less toxic gaming community. I'm probably in the 90th percentile for toxicity on FAF.


@FtXCommando it is less toxic than any other gaming community today.

It is substantially more toxic than it was in 2012. What changed?


2012 players are built different


@Wainan is it actually substantially more toxic now or are we just being nostalgic for the past? If it's more toxic I'd say it's because we're bigger now if I'm not mistaken, but even then I'd hardly consider the community as a whole toxic especially relative to other gaming communities. Sure there are outliers and people who are toxic or rage easily, but imo it's the exception and not the norm.

The most toxic thing I see in FAF usually is people spouting their ignorant political bullshit which I can see having gotten significantly worse since 2012 but that's also par the course for any online community.


@Exselsior I don't recall people getting angry about losing in the same way they do today.


Then what's different? Maybe you are just older and not able to take as much after coming back home after work? So you tend to take words harder than you used to?


@RandomWheelchair You've made an awful lot of assumptions to back up what you want to believe.

There's absolutely no reason for players of this game to be obnoxious to each other, and back in the more innocent days before social media weaponised trolling and used it to effect worldwide political upheaval, FA players were nice to each other, and were interested in helping each other get better, and did want to share the experience of this most marvellous of games together.


Don't get what you mean. When I played gap in 2014 I probably had every 2nd game end in salt and every 5th one end in stuff closer to death threats. Granted it takes two to tumble and it wasn't like I was fully innocent of causing the atmosphere back then.

People forget how pervasive smurf accusations were prior to steamlink. There was a time where like 5 of the top 25 on the leaderboard were just various smurfs of other people. No action was taken against them anyway since you would only get banned for it when you intentionally played like shit AND the account was linked back to you.

In fact one of the largest things about "why do new people leave FAF" back during those days were those precise smurf accusations by people that were stuck at a plateau at 600 and couldn't fathom someone watching a few sup com vids and being able to outperform them.


What indication do you have that RandomWheelchair is wrong and your memory is right? There is strong scientific evidence that our memory of things is more positive than it actually was.

And yes, there are reasons. People can shield themselves from the realisation that they made a mistake and the following feeling of inadeqacy by focusing all their attention on their teammates' mistakes and raging at them to vent their emotions.



And the reason I didn't come back for so long was because I didn't want to get banned for making a second account!

@blackyps RandomWheelchair is in no position to say what I do when I come home from work or what state of mind I might be in.

I have a very good memory for people being obnoxious.



I left to play Planetary Annihilation, around the time engie mod was introduced. That predates the examples you're giving


So you've debunked me because my thread is from 2015 and not 2013? The user growth was marginal between 2013 and 2015; it went from like 5k monthly users to 7.5k monthly users.

People were toxic in the past my man, your nirvana FAF never existed except maybe back in 2012 when FAF was a dozen dudes with a specific closed beta invite from ZeP.


You remember obnoxious people for a decade? I would be glad if I forgot them quick. Anyway this discussion is leading nowhere.

You: The communitiy was less toxic earlier.
Someone else: No
You: Yes



If I accept that there have always been arseholes, would you accept that we've always been better off without them?


No because many would consider me an asshole and I would imagine I've done a good bit for FAF. Many might even go and consider Downlord, the central developer for our current client, an asshole.

I'd rather have a team of assholes that care enough to hate something than some apathetic dudes that may or may not be motivated to change something.