Why would you have left FAF?

Serious question, is there any support among the Council of Seton's for making toxic behaviour immediately punishable?

In the early days of Supcom (GPG, early FAF), there was next to no obnoxious behaviour. There's still a lot less than in other online games, but I feel that if management took a strong stand against it then the culture could be changed.

As I've said above, we all underestimate how hard the game is and how skilled we are. Do we really want people who have so little self awareness that they abuse anybody who doesn't know the game as well as them?

Community -thats your answer. When you cant find a game coz "no grey +100500 games +800r" for 2-3 hours - its not so inspiring. And this without standart flaming whine like "you played only 10 games, but cant hold frontline vs +100games player". I think i shall play day - maybe two and uninstall too. Just not worth it.

@Wainan said in Why would you have left FAF?:

Serious question, is there any support among the Council of Seton's for making toxic behaviour immediately punishable?

In the early days of Supcom (GPG, early FAF), there was next to no obnoxious behaviour. There's still a lot less than in other online games, but I feel that if management took a strong stand against it then the culture could be changed.

As I've said above, we all underestimate how hard the game is and how skilled we are. Do we really want people who have so little self awareness that they abuse anybody who doesn't know the game as well as them?

Maybe use the report function? Nobody is gonna make safe spaces just for you if you ain't gonna even report the offenders.

If more people hosted "nice players only" lobbies that would suggest there is more demand for good behavior. I think there is a lot of willingness to tolerate toxicity and trying to force everyone to be nice would also have serious downsides.

For example, "Gentleman Seton's" has specific rules about being polite, not ctrl-k your base, that sort of thing. The vast majority of Seton's games are not "Gentleman" games.

If someone hosts a "Be Polite 500+" lobby, I'm guessing there would be 90% less toxicity in that game.

I always advocate people to host the games that they want to play. It doesn't matter if you have 2 games or 2000.

@RandomWheelchair said in Why would you have left FAF?:

@Wainan said in Why would you have left FAF?:

Serious question, is there any support among the Council of Seton's for making toxic behaviour immediately punishable?

In the early days of Supcom (GPG, early FAF), there was next to no obnoxious behaviour. There's still a lot less than in other online games, but I feel that if management took a strong stand against it then the culture could be changed.

As I've said above, we all underestimate how hard the game is and how skilled we are. Do we really want people who have so little self awareness that they abuse anybody who doesn't know the game as well as them?

Maybe use the report function? Nobody is gonna make safe spaces just for you if you ain't gonna even report the offenders.

I'll happily do that if it's wanted.

Well do you want it? Being toxic is already forbidden behaviour, but you need to actually report the people or nothing will happen.

@BlackYps said in Why would you have left FAF?:

Well do you want it? Being toxic is already forbidden behaviour, but you need to actually report the people or nothing will happen.

Cool, I wasn't sure how seriously it was taken. I will report it from now on.

@arma473 said in Why would you have left FAF?:

If more people hosted "nice players only" lobbies that would suggest there is more demand for good behavior. I think there is a lot of willingness to tolerate toxicity and trying to force everyone to be nice would also have serious downsides.

For example, "Gentleman Seton's" has specific rules about being polite, not ctrl-k your base, that sort of thing. The vast majority of Seton's games are not "Gentleman" games.

If someone hosts a "Be Polite 500+" lobby, I'm guessing there would be 90% less toxicity in that game.

I always advocate people to host the games that they want to play. It doesn't matter if you have 2 games or 2000.

Your suggestion is indeed a workaround if you are already invested in the game and just fed up with the toxicity. I see a couple problems with relying on this approach though:

New players don't know the game, the maps or the implicit rules about hosting (initially, most of them don't even know what "being grey" means), so new players don't host games. I'm fairly certain this is true in basically all server lobby based games, so the experience new players will have is the one we give them, for better or worse.

Even if new players were to host games though, it would put the responsibility and work of curating a good game experience on them, which is not what we want. If we want to retain as many new people as possible, they should be able to just play the game and have fun, without worrying about all that stuff.
Therefore, I would strongly argue that curating an enjoyable new player experience is on us, the invested people, and not the new players themselves.

@BlackYps said in Why would you have left FAF?:

Well do you want it? Being toxic is already forbidden behaviour, but you need to actually report the people or nothing will happen.

I think nice people will generally feel it is inappropriate to report people for "not being nice".

If this actually needs to be reported then say so:

• Put a thin banner above the custom games list stating for example:
• "Please report players for verbal harassment and toxic behavior to help us keep the community a friendly place for everyone."

@CheeseBerry said in Why would you have left FAF?:

Make flaming, griefing, ctrl+k-ing your base reportable

that is already the case.

there's even an in-game prompt asking you whether you want report a user if the game thinks he attempted to grief you.

(dunno if that's still in)

@arma473 said in Why would you have left FAF?:

"Be Polite 500+" lobby

this is actually a practice I've witnessed. probably could bear to be a little more frequent.

I left FAF a long time ago, and when I came back, I saw the game with many changes (exp aeon plane with shield, wtf?). I feel noob and I see too good players.

I played SC/SCFA during long time and if I see the game hard, a noob.... it can see it too hard. Anyeay, I think players left is normal, too many games and the time is limited.

@Wainan said in Why would you have left FAF?:

Serious question, is there any support among the Council of Seton's for making toxic behaviour immediately punishable?

No other councilor bothered to reply to this so I will,
(Keep in mind we're not a unified entity)

As people have stated, the report functions are already in place.

The only reason you might feel that this is not the case is the same reason that:

@CheeseBerry said in Why would you have left FAF?:

My suggestions therefore would be a Karma system of sorts, fully built into the client.

Isn't viable.
The manpower of FAF will always be a major weakness,
Dealing with watching players 50 minute long gap games to find the moment where a player reclaimed your pgen is already a timesink, so trying to arbitrate a karma system to make sure people are not abusing it, is an unfeasble use of resources.

@Valki said in Why would you have left FAF?:

Put a thin banner above the custom games list stating for example:

A UI element such as this will only provoke a negative reaction and rightfully so, it makes FAF appear like it cannot handle it's community properly. You may not believe we do, but admitting to it is opening another can of worms. It's both overly draconian and overly weak. Also - If people are going to modify elements in said client UI, I rather they be doing something about fixing this garbage fire, than further complicating it.

The best thing to do is properly embed the report form link into the client UI instead of the bandaid methods we're using now (on the chat topic bar, and with a bot) so you can find it easier.

If the current system of reporting worked, there wouldn't be toxic behavior nearly every game.

@veteranashe
But it works? People are getting banned all the time?
Hell, there are instances where people are getting banned for stuff they should never have been banned for. So I really don't get it how you can come and say that it doesn't work?

Maybe instead of crying you should just make proper report next time with proper evidence?

@RandomWheelchair said in Why would you have left FAF?:

@veteranashe
But it works? People are getting banned all the time?
Hell, there are instances where people are getting banned for stuff they should never have been banned for. So I really don't get it how you can come and say that it doesn't work?

Maybe instead of crying you should just make proper report next time with proper evidence?

This is exactly the type of toxic attitude that resides in this community. Your reply is harsh, is empty content wise and is at best trolling in this context.

As an example, do you understand the full context of @veteranashe ? Did you ask him how he makes his reports? And if you did, did you tell him how to make a better report?

With your response you're just telling him to 'stop crying' and 'do better' without telling him how to do better. How would you react if your professor would give you an C- and then just tells you to 'stop crying and do better'? Does that tell you anything on what you did wrong? Does that tell you what topics you don't understand yet, and why? Does that help you prepare better for your next exam? It doesn't - as much as your post doesn't help anyone reading it either.

If you are going to tell someone to do better, at least state how better should look like. That may or may not help veteranashe, but perhaps it can help someone else and it appears a lot more friendly to the random reader that right now reads 'stop crying, do better - cheerio mate'.

Back on topic: I joined faf years a go just to leave it within a month. It wasn't a skill issue, it wasn't any technical issues: it was toxicity.

Every single game I did everything wrong because I did not understand the meta in map X or map Y. And I'm leaving the map names out with a purpose - according to every map that a host hosts there is a meta and if you don't get that meta then you apparently suck ass and should just uninstall the game. This while I could beat all my friends and the original AIX in the base game at that time.

This kind of %$#@ still happens and is widely mentioned throughout this thread. Sadly, it is not only in the game itself but also in our discord channels. Including the creative discord where content is made for this game.

Apparently people find it important that their opinion is always heard, even though there is no reason to state it with the attitude that sometimes is used. Multiple people have left the creative discord after or during their first map because of toxicity in the form harsh comments or opinions that were not required at all.

Throughout the last year we've lost at least three people that I can name from the top of my head that were either making content, or were at the start of making content and got demotivated or insulted because of the harsh responses that they got while showing their map and / or asking for feedback.

On top of that - the forum and the discord channels are essentially public - how does it appear to the random reader when its filled with toxicity? It wouldn't be that much inviting to me.

Alas, the only reason I came back two or three years ago is because this is the only reliable platform on which I can publish content for the game - and I enjoy doing that a lot.

"This is exactly the type of toxic attitude that resides in this community. Your reply is harsh, is empty content wise and is at best trolling in this context."
Pardon me for loosing my cool when I see the same exact frigging sentiment for the thousand time this past months, when regarding systems that mostly work correctly. How does he know that it doesn't work at all? Did he even make a proper report with evidence?

Cuz' funny enough each time I made proper reports with actual evidence I either got response that player got warned or outright banned. Why is it that for me the system works but apparently others are incapable of using it at all? Maybe the problem lies not in the system but that a certain person is just not capable of handling playing a game with other human beings? Beings that also want to have fun, it's multiplayer game. You are bound to share place with others so don't expect everyone to be pandering to your needs. Even more when you are bound to meet people that are vastly different from you.

"As an example, do you understand the full context of @veteranashe ? Did you ask him how he makes his reports? And if you did, did you tell him how to make a better report?"

Pardon me for not going out of my way to teach someone basic things like getting evidence against someone. Even more when the report form is properly setup and explains what to do. And even if it didn't plain basic understanding should be enough to mention where and what happened together with providing evidence in format of replay or screenshots.

"With your response you're just telling him to 'stop crying' and 'do better' without telling him how to do better. How would you react if your professor would give you an C- and then just tells you to 'stop crying and do better'? Does that tell you anything on what you did wrong? Does that tell you what topics you don't understand yet, and why? Does that help you prepare better for your next exam? It doesn't - as much as your post doesn't help anyone reading it either."

If system ain't broke don't try to fix it? In my experience it works properly as someone is actually willing to report the offending person instead of just coming to aeolus/dsc/forum and wailing how everyone one is toxic and moderation does nothing at all.
Well I'm not a child, so when I take a standarised test I'm expected to actually know what it contains and am provided with knowledge what it entails. Same situation here, the report form have everything you need to make a proper report. I'm not here to babysit people who can't be even arsed to read basic information on how to make a report nor are willing to contact moderation before spewing bullshit how everything is broken.

"If you are going to tell someone to do better, at least state how better should look like. That may or may not help veteranashe, but perhaps it can help someone else and it appears a lot more friendly to the random reader that right now reads 'stop crying, do better - cheerio mate'."

Same as before, all the information is freely available to everyone. And even if it weren't it's not rocket science on how to gather evidence against someone and then present it to higher instance instead of going about and publicly crying. Cuz sorry that's how his post seems to be.
Hell you can even see at what stage your report is, just log into the goddamn FAF page. Yes we have one, and it actually have some basic functionality.

"Every single game I did everything wrong because I did not understand the meta in map X or map Y. And I'm leaving the map names out with a purpose - according to every map that a host hosts there is a meta and if you don't get that meta then you apparently suck ass and should just uninstall the game. This while I could beat all my friends and the original AIX in the base game at that time."

I guess welcome to competitive gaming where people want to win the games and someone being really bad is inhibiting the possibility of having fun, as they are nothing more than dead weight. You aren't the only one who wants to have fun, there is another 1-11 people who want to have fun too. Again, if someone said something bad just use report function. But I doubt telling someone that they are bad can be considered toxic, same with telling to uninstall. It's actually quite mild thing to say.

Good, you beat some noobs and then actually met people who are playing to win. Welcome to online gaming where people want to win again and again. Also really? Beating AI in games makes people think that they are now gonna smash the online lobbies?

"This kind of %$#@ still happens and is widely mentioned throughout this thread. Sadly, it is not only in the game itself but also in our discord channels. Including the creative discord where content is made for this game."

Again, if they broke the rules then report them? Or just grow some thick skin? Not everyone is gonna pander to everyone's else needs. The options are there and moderation can easily dish out warning or bans if they deem the other to cross the line.

"On top of that - the forum and the discord channels are essentially public - how does it appear to the random reader when its filled with toxicity? It wouldn't be that much inviting to me."

Same, if you think that person is crossing the boundary then report them. Or you know, maybe the people who are so offended should go and say it upfront to the other person that they don't wish to be treated in such way instead of cowering and then crying how no one is doing anything for them? Like grow some spine people, you are mostly grown up people who should be able to stand on their own instead of going and asking others to held their hands.

highlight the text in the original post and then hit quote my man

@Jip said in Why would you have left FAF?:

Throughout the last year we've lost at least three people that I can name from the top of my head that were either making content, or were at the start of making content and got demotivated or insulted because of the harsh responses that they got while showing their map and / or asking for feedback.

Were they all because of Marlo?
I have to say though, the one I remember (LittleMissMurder) was definitely oversensitive to leave immediately because of one rude dude. Can't really do much about people who are that sensitive; they could at least report it to mods and stick around to see if anything comes of it or if other people are more helpful.

@RandomWheelchair said in Why would you have left FAF?:

But I doubt telling someone that they are bad can be considered toxic, same with telling to uninstall. It's actually quite mild thing to say.

Telling someone they are bad, w/e, have to deal with it when it's true, but telling them to never play the game again definitely is pretty toxic. Just because there are worse things doesn't mean we should excuse the otherwise still toxic stuff.

And yes, in general I have to agree with Endranii, reports do work, you just have to make them. Even got contacted by a mod directly once for further questions, so really can't say that reports don't work.

Ok I'll try a game tomorrow night and see if someone doesn't grief or show sort of unacceptable behavior.

I do not know what would to be done to fix the problem, I just know that people don't play because of it.

@biass said in [Why would you have left FAF?]

@CheeseBerry said in Why would you have left FAF?:

My suggestions therefore would be a Karma system of sorts, fully built into the client.

Isn't viable.
The manpower of FAF will always be a major weakness,
Dealing with watching players 50 minute long gap games to find the moment where a player reclaimed your pgen is already a timesink, so trying to arbitrate a karma system to make sure people are not abusing it, is an unfeasble use of resources.

I agree, taxing the time of our volunteer moderators further just to marginally improve the game is not feasable.

My intention for the karma system would be to have it mostly, or maybe even completely, automated.
I don't think this is the right place to post a three page design document about a possible karma system, so I'll try to be concise:

The main thing that requires human intervention are the meaningful, game altering punishments that come from griefing, harassment, etc. This is necessary of course, nobody should be banned w/o a human in the loop presiding over that decision.

What could be automated though is the small stuff, mainly the "was he an asshole or polite/helpful in the recent game" question, as well as (very) minor punishments or rewards.

As such, you could have the option to rate players after a game using the same interface prompt we already use to rate games as a whole.
Getting rated would result in someones karma score going up/down and after certain thresholds, you get minor punishments/benefits.
Like getting an automated warning informing them that they are making the game worse for others, or an angel/teacher emoji next to your name, if you are regularly nice/helpful

Maybe don't even give any rewards/punishments at all and just have a karma score shown when you click on someones profile as an incentive to be a bit more nice of a person. People like seeing numbers go up after all.
Like I said in my original post, this is all work in progress, especially the possible rewards punishments.

Having a way to rate to conduct of others might also help from a psychological perspective. Instead of being annoyed and having to stir in your own thoughts after a game, you get to tell the official karma system "Yes, he was a dick that game!" and get a "Thank you for your feedback.", providing just a bit of closure.
 

A couple of days ago I report someone for "being a dick" during multiple games and as expected nothing happened. This is probably a good thing, you don't want to start banning people for venting during a bad day, but it does give another perspective to the "just report them" suggestion:
Reporting may work, but it certainly doesn't for the small stuff.

It is good that the reporting system exists, but the small stuff does matter too!

Like I already said, this is not about me, my online-skin is thick enough by now, and it's also not about any of the real, competitive GaMErZ in this thread. We'll manage.

It is specifically about the new, inexperienced players and for them the difference between a welcoming and a hostile environment is huge.

The karma system might not be the right way to go, or it might just be a small part in a bigger solution, but I definitely think we can do better.