Unusual tactic in 1v1 ladder games

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@Valki I think a nuke would win sooner actually or a simple experimental.

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@techmind_ MML are early answer to PD walls but T2 arty have no natural counters...

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@techmind_ said in Unusual tactic in 1v1 ladder games:

Yeah, map control kinda sucks in his case, cause he have 4-8 t3 heavily protected mexes and everybody else spent mass on units, there is no 'effective' t2 arty, so shields + pd2/pd3 become kinda op. And everybody else have map control but 1/2 of his eco and could not penetrate his base. The only way to win is too out-eco him with more t3 mexes in long run 😃
Basically, t2 stage does not have an answer to firebases.

This is untrue, mml are a decent answer to firebases since the enemy has to invest roughly similar amount of mass in tmd (that don't move, and don't defend against anything other than missiles).

Besides, it is unnecessary to try to break firebases in general. They are investing in defense -- what beats defense? -- greed does! So if you see t2 pd just make like 2 mml to force a response from the opponent and then get a t2 mex. Once you reach t3 it will be trivial to kill firebases anyway with t3 mobile arty.

It all comes down to very basic RTS principles, they are building defensive units. What are defensive units good against? Aggressive units. What are defensive units weak against? Greed (eco/tech). When enemy is turtling literally the worst possible thing you can do is attack them.

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@Mylaur said in Unusual tactic in 1v1 ladder games:

@Valki I think a nuke would win sooner actually or a simple experimental.

If the experimental fails then he gets a lot of mass.
A nuke can be stopped by anti-nuke.

I thought... correct me if I am wrong, T3 arty will damage the shields enough that they will not regenerate. His base being so small, it is likely to damage all or most shields at once, so the risk of all options is lowest.

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@SteelTalon I forget the name of the map, but it's the white 5k one where you start on a raised bit with three starting mexes and a there's a hydro lower down behind a mountain.

He'd made only T1 mobile arty and had walled in his starting position, and he'd made a firebase on the south edge surrounding a single mex.

I was convinced I could steamroll it with mantises but turned out I was wrong.

I reckon if I'd just started making T2 MMLs I would have had no problem, but reading this thread makes me doubt that a bit.

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@Wainan It is a fascination of mine to watch games and how different people react to his strategy so I have seen a number of different approaches.

I've seen people try MML spam, but by the time they realise that they are facing a determined turtle, he is usually up to T2 build power already and can build T2 static arty which renders MMLs a complete waste of resources as it loses hard to artillery+shield.


I faced him once more since starting the thread, on Vulcan's Reach. Due to my clumsiness, I allowed him to get established in the upper right corner of the map, but otherwise I took complete map control essentially unchallenged and instead of trying to invest any serious effort into breaking down his front door, I kept him occupied with some small T1 land armies as "bait" for his radar (he rarely ever scouts anything at all, least of which your main base), as well as some "annoying" with UEF Sparkies while I spent all my mass on upgrading to T2 mex, ringing them and starting T3 mex upgrades; while investing the rest into power, engineers and a T3 air factory to just put an end to the grindy game with 11-12 Ambassadors to his ACU. This takes time however, and is not really what I'd call an entertaining way to play the game.

He played as he does every single game. Starting out with expanding, totally unprotected engineers out of his first factory, and if they reach their intended expansions, he builds a single T1 PD and T1 AA before factory making it extremely open for a swift denial if you just pay attention with your early raiding units. If you fail to take it down early, he will build Lobos (practically never tanks) for scout-less harassment and defence, until he can fill that base with T2 PD, and T2 artillery if you try to kill the base. His end game is practically always shield SACUs point defence creeping across the map and a Novax followed by a Duke. My strat snipe came shortly after he plowed all his resources into the Novax.

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If you consistently beat people like that, they will recognize you, and they can start to ctrl-k long before you get to that point. Once they realize that you are going to take your time, and crush them, and that they can't possibly win, they should ctrl-k. After a while, you will get them to ctrl-k 5-10 minutes into a match. You can also just ask people to leave. If you have total map control and more T3 mexes than the turtle, you can just type into chat "I have more T3 mexes than you. You should give up so we can play the next game." Try communicating with people. Be polite and don't try to bully people into quitting games where they still have a chance of winning.

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@SteelTalon I've watched a few of his replays and I think I'm starting to develop a similar obsession. I just watched an Open Palms that went for 1hr 40 before Derek conceded because he was tired. It was so strange to watch.

He's really very good at what he does. To start with I thought that it was almost a script he was running, there's such a planned and consistent approach to it. But he deals with threats quickly and efficiently, and in ways that suggests he's never read any theory of how to play FA, he just understands it incredibly well on his own terms. He's got this laser focus towards things that can hit hard from far away and he's very, very good at using them. At one point on the 1:40 Open Palms he deals with some mobile T3 arty shelling his shields by making a factory and spamming Lobos out of it. And it worked perfectly!

Have you got replays where he loses? I'd love to see a properly high-level player against him just to see if he can force them into his playstyle, but any replay of him losing would be interesting.

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@Wainan said in Unusual tactic in 1v1 ladder games:

Have you got replays where he loses? I'd love to see a properly high-level player against him just to see if he can force them into his playstyle, but any replay of him losing would be interesting.

I just watched a few replays and wow this guy is an absolute legend! Somehow I never realised quite how crazy 800 games are.

I'd give him maybe 10 minutes on palms, but could be less

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@Blodir he's really very unique. I've never seen anybody play like that and be successful before.

In the games I watched there were plenty of times where I thought his opponent would overwhelm him but he just manages to spam T1 PD and comes out with minimal damage.

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I find it fascinating too how games at this level play off. But what's even more interesting is talking to those people !

I've chatted once with RoyBatty6, one of the gatekeepers of ~500 elo. He only plays ranked 1v1, about hundred of hours per month acocrding to the leaderboard ... I was curious why he never plays anything else, and if he actually was trying to improve his strategies after so many games.
He just told me about playing a teamgame long ago, and not knowing what to do, while people expected him to play a certain way. So he felt quite "unprepared" to play teamgames and just focuses on 1v1 ! We talked about general strategies, which ones he struggles against ( i recall he mentionned turtle ..) ... and he actually asked me for advices !

I have a feeling that he just doesn't care too much about how the game should be played but just enjoys playing it his own way, which is great. Sometimes I wish those guys were more under the spotlight, we don't hear from them too much, even tough we can clearly spot some legends just looking at the leaderboard.

Watching replays from other players at this level is so interesting cause you have numerous playstyles and they do just so many random things with a crazy consistency ! Maybe that would call for a cast of "low elo legends" like they do in some other RTS communities ? 🙂

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@cocAurico said in Unusual tactic in 1v1 ladder games:

He just told me about playing a teamgame long ago, and not knowing what to do, while people expected him to play a certain way. So he felt quite "unprepared" to play teamgames and just focuses on 1v1 !

Except from trying ladder 2v2 with a friend, I know this. I did 3 serious team games I think, and I got yelled at and/or caused my team to lose by basically playing like 1v1. I have a global rating of 1200 or so, so I cannot join noob games and should expect to ruin the game for the other players while not knowing what to do.

/rant
@cocAurico said in Unusual tactic in 1v1 ladder games:

Watching replays from other players at this level is so interesting cause you have numerous playstyles and they do just so many random things with a crazy consistency ! Maybe that would call for a cast of "low elo legends" like they do in some other RTS communities ? 🙂

Years back I have suggested to numerous casters to also make videos of short low level games. Instead of a 50 minute epic, stick 3 short games in there, including one-sided ones. With casters picking out long and awesome games you learn very little actually. I played a lot of Starcraft 2, and you learn a lot from short one-sided games.

/rant

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@cocAurico I'm rated about 800 1v1 and I feel very similarly about team games.

https://forum.faforever.com/topic/1085/unpopular-opinion-team-games-are-harder-than-1v1s

With the exception of some maps where the roles are well defined (e.g. Seton's) and small land maps where the flow calls for T1 land spam, I get totally overwhelmed in a lot of team games. I can see that there are hundreds of potential threats, so I try to counter all of them and stretch myself too thin and end up being ineffective.

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@Blodir I would not give him 10 minutes on open palms - turbo didn't even last 8 minutes on palms vs nexus in the fall invitational. This dude would probably die faster.

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@Wainan It is off topic, but I feel the same. I end up just playing 1v1 because I am not used to general team games, and thus I underperform from what my global rating should suggest, which I achieved simply because I did some lazy-games on Setons or Gap on occasion, which actually further adds to the issue. Low amount of custom games with a global rating of 1100 makes people suspicious and typically won't let me play in others hosted games. It is a bit of a negative spiral 👎

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@SteelTalon Try playing some mapgen teamgames. Hosts are usually quite open to less experienced players. Futhermore, mapgens games (due to their novelty) usually dont have fixed roles/lanes for players and are often quite dynamic to play. Both should be an advantage for ladder players.

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@Amygdala what are those and how do you find a game?

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@Wainan. Mapgen means computer generated maps. Its an option when you make a custom game. Mapgen maps are displayed with a die symbol in the custom games list. There are some players which regulary host teamgames on mapgen like phong and Sheikah (which is also the main developer). Or simply host them yourself.
Here a randomly picked game to give you an idea: https://replay.faforever.com/13583551
Here a forum post about the mapgen options:
https://forum.faforever.com/topic/17/neroxis-map-generator?_=1610817988604

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@Wainan Here is a good replay to see how to beat him in a long game: #13648407

Pay attention to: (1) map control (2) how Teruco keeps his units moving so they don't die to random lobo spam (3) how Teruco keeps up economically. Specifically--the map control helps him (he gets more reclaim, he makes/holds more t1 mexes) but he can't keep up economically without making T2 mexes and then T3 mexes. Pay attention to (4) how Teruco doesn't throw away many units with failed attacks. Look at (5) how Teruco finally finishes things, with overwhelming force. He is able to pay for all that because his economy is bigger than Derek_'s.

Derek_ does try to expand. If you let him push out and get more T3 mexes, he can get a bigger economy than you, and ultimately win. So you have to keep him boxed in. It is as much a threat as it is an opportunity, because you can see how much reclaim gets left behind when Teruco does break his expansions.

If you want to avoid losing tanks to lobos, you want to keep them in motion, and not in a straight line. You don't have to babysit them (watch them and nothing else on the map). You can queue up zig-zag move orders for them.

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@arma473 For his rating, that is pretty much a perfect response. 🙂